[Plainville MA] Battleground 40k Doubles Tournament - 12/3

[KestrelM1]

Can we have a ruling on this scarab thing ahead of time?

I don't care about the order of events on entropic strike so much, but if I get randomly first turn charged I'll be pissed.

Here's a BOLS post that nicely summs up the problem(s):

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2011/11/paging-matthew-ward-scarab-edition.html

The current RAW indicate the following:

1. The Armor Drain from Entropic Strike happens before rolling to pen. It clearly states that you roll for Entropic Strike drainage after each hit, and that the drain happens immediately, i.e. before the roll to pen.

2. Spyder + Scarab conga lines are legit. The Scarab hive rule only states that you pick a scarab swarm within 6", roll your d6, and on a 2+ you add a base to the unit, with no restrictions on where (terrible rules writing IMO, but that's GW for you). That means the only rule that applies is that the new base must be within coherency of the existing unit.

3. Scarab hive says add a base to the unit, this may take it past its starting size. No mention of maximum. There is no cap on how many scarab bases you can add to a unit. (I really don't understand why this was even brought up).

If you run into someone who's fixing to 1st-turn-scarab-bomb you, it's probably wise to reserve anything you don't want getting charged. The first two questions above could use an FAQ to clear up confusion, but as written they fully allow for the shenanigans described.

[Benjamin]

*sigh* Another example of why I can't read BOLS.

I will in the strongest terms advocate for Mike Brandt's assessment.

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.com/2011/11/note-on-scarab-freak-outs.html

In a nutshell...

Entropic Strike... This requires a player to read the rules. A terrifying thought, I know. Hits happen before pens. Armor gets eaten before pens. That's an the easy one.

Scarab Conga... Major tournaments will not allow the Scarab Conga line, unless GW specifically says it can happen. What tournaments will allow is for new Scarabs bases to be placed within coherency of the original unit. Think of all the Scarabs being generated simultaneously, instead of one after the other.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Right.

That's fine with the armor pens, as I stated, don't care so much about that.

But with the conga-line thing.  I don't care if it's RAW.  RAW is stupid in this case.  It's clearly not what is intended, first turn charges are supposed to be largely impossible to accomplish.

So can we just rule that no, you can't do it?  All new scarabs have to be within coherency of scarabs that were there at the beginning of the turn or something similar?  (it actually works like this already, if you simply declare that all the scarab creation happens "simultaneously" much like one unit shooting, then you can't chain one of the other.)

[Grimwulfe]

I dont play Necrons but RAW is RAW until it is FAQ'ed.  Regardless of peoples opinions about.  And trust me I dot like or agree with it either but there is noting that says they cant.

[Sir_Prometheus]

I disagree.  Why can't we house rule it?  This allows a first turn charge with a huge, fairly distructive and definitely tar-pit like unit.  It basically makes "being IG or Tau" completely unviable, and it's pretty sucky for a host of other army's besides.

I don't care what the RAW says.  We should just say "No".

[Sir_Prometheus]

and, point of order, one interpretation of RAW is actually that no, it is not legal, as per the link Ben sent over.

"Just a quick PSA that the probability is nearly 100% that any major FAQ and tournament out there is going to confirm all scarab swarms spawned in a given turn are spawned at the same time, and thus cannot be placed more than 2" from any scarab swarm base that was there at the beginning of the turn."

[Benjamin]

I dont play Necrons but RAW is RAW until it is FAQ'ed.  Regardless of peoples opinions about.

Unless those people are TOs, amirite?

I disagree.  Why can't we house rule it?

Because house rules ultimately destroy communities. RAW is the only common language between players, new and old. That said...

BG generally takes its cues from major tournaments in terms of rulings and FAQs. (BG tournaments generally use the INAT FAQs.) A little bit of leeway is required by all players with any new codex. There is always confusion with a new book, complicated by beardy cheeseheads. If BG rules one way on a new rule with a gut instinct, but the rule changes between tournaments, the new rules will eventually be honored.

I think I'll ask Sam to make a rules announcement prior to the tournament start, to clarify BG's position.

[KestrelM1]

I disagree.  Why can't we house rule it?  This allows a first turn charge with a huge, fairly distructive and definitely tar-pit like unit.  It basically makes "being IG or Tau" completely unviable, and it's pretty sucky for a host of other army's besides.

I don't care what the RAW says.  We should just say "No".

I'm fine with either interpretation, but house-ruling something just because it seems overly powerful dilutes the game into something that isn't Warhammer 40k.

If you're truly offended by the fact that the RAW (potentially) makes this possible, I'd suggest addressing your complaints to those at fault - Games Workshop, rather than the fine folks at Battlegrounds.

[Grimwulfe]

Ben you have a very valid point.  I agree with you 100%.

Kestrel you made my point much better then I did

[Chase]

For better or for worse, things here seem pretty clear to me.

1) The AV is reduced before you roll to pen.

2) Conga lines seem perfectly legal.


I am not under the impression that there's any other way you *could* look at it.  Then again, I still don't think there's any alternative way to look at the lance thing from a while ago, but that's been resolved.

Personally, I think things like this are GOOD for ANY game. It's a gimmick and requires a large portion of your army to be dedicated to the "strategy".  If left unchanged I'm sure it will force people to adapt to deal with it.

I also think changing the way things work, when written so clearly, is bad when we're talking about a tournament environment.

I would like to see this not changed.  I do believe it will be FAQd such that you must place the extra bases in coherency with the original models.  Until that happens, I think it would be a shame to literally house rule something that, in my opinion, couldn't be more clear / within the rules.


Sam will decide how we should play it.

[jhobin]

Unfortunately I believe the conga is legit right now, a little cheesy but legit.

I don't think it should be banned because it's a first round strike. Can't any beast unit technically first round charge if they deploy in 12' roll a fleet roll of 6' and there opponents deploy 12' in? If so wouldn't they have to be banned as well?

[keithb]

NOVA and INAT will be banning the conga line if GW doesn't.

Keep in mind, a scarab unit with full Spyder support can assault a unit that was just over 50" away from it at the start of the turn.   FIFTY.  That is longer range than many long range guns.  It is clearly an oversight by the book authors.   

NO Jeff, Beasts have an 18" threat.  You get 50".  That isn't just a little different.   You can assault more than the WIDTH OF THE TABLE.

[Sir_Prometheus]

For better or for worse, things here seem pretty clear to me.

1) The AV is reduced before you roll to pen.

2) Conga lines seem perfectly legal.


I am not under the impression that there's any other way you *could* look at it.  Then again, I still don't think there's any alternative way to look at the lance thing from a while ago, but that's been resolved.

Personally, I think things like this are GOOD for ANY game. It's a gimmick and requires a large portion of your army to be dedicated to the "strategy".  If left unchanged I'm sure it will force people to adapt to deal with it.

I also think changing the way things work, when written so clearly, is bad when we're talking about a tournament environment.

I would like to see this not changed.  I do believe it will be FAQd such that you must place the extra bases in coherency with the original models.  Until that happens, I think it would be a shame to literally house rule something that, in my opinion, couldn't be more clear / within the rules.


Sam will decide how we should play it.

Well, the main counter-view is that all the bases are simultaneous, thus you can't chain them.  That's common for a great many things.  

I don't think it should be banned because it's a first round strike. Can't any beast unit technically first round charge if they deploy in 12' roll a fleet roll of 6' and there opponents deploy 12' in? If so wouldn't they have to be banned as well?

Not really.  There's very few beasts that can start within 24".  In filtraters can only appear within 18", unless the enemy is stupid and deploys next to LOS blocking terrain, and scouters can never get within 12".  Not coincidentally, genestealers have infiltrate, but no scout, so it's impossible for them to first turn charge.

I can't think of any beasts that scout or infiltrate.  That's on purpose, to avoid first turn charges.

Now, it is possible to fist turn charge with some units, such SM scouts that somehow get fleet (some Special character gives it to them).  But scouts are wimps.  Anyway, it's really, really, really rare that this happens. 

[Chase]

I have a feeling Sam will rule that it won't work as written.


I just really, really, really dislike changing a very powerful addition to a brand new codex 2 days before an event based on strong opinions.


Did the author foresee this "conga line"?  No.

Is it strong?  Yes.

Is it within the rules?  Yes.

Is it game breaking?  Who knows...

Does it make the game unfun?  Maybe.  At first it might, but so does any other gimmick strat that you didn't see coming.

Do I foresee this being an issue at the Doubles regardless of how it's ruled?  No.

Would I rather see people adapt to the fact that this might happen?  Yes.

Do I think things like this keep the game fresh?  Yes.

Do I think it will be FAQd?  Yes.

Do I think Sam will rule against it working as written?  Yes.

[keithb]

Most units can reach 24" from where they started their turn in an assault, but that is only with a lucky fleet roll.

Scarabs go 50" with full spyder support.  This isn't if you are lucky, this is UNLESS there is other shit in the way.

More than twice what any other unit in the game can do.

Seems legit.

There isn't any reason to hesitate banning stupid stuff.  Necrons are fine, and will be fine without it.