Blood Angels 2000 points: list advice wanted

[Henry R]

As the title says. Here is the list.

HQ
Gabriel Seth-160 points
Razorback-55
Twin linked heavy flamer

Mephiston-250

Troops
Assault Squad-235 x4
1 sergeant with powerfist
2 marines with hand flamers
7 marines with bolt pistols and chainswords
(no jump-packs)
Dedicated transport: Rhino-15 x4

Fast Attack
x3  Attack bikes-150
all have multi-meltas

x3 Attack bikes-150
all have multi-meltas

Baal predator-115
flamestorm cannon

Heavy support
Predator-135
lascannon sponsons

[Benjamin]

My concern is you aren't bringing enough anti-mech weaponry with your list.

Now, without knowing how personally attached you are to your original list...

Four assault squads like this.
Assault Squad x5, Meltagun, Infernus Pistol, Razorback w/ Las/plas (198 points)

If the Razorbacks are too expensive points-wise for your tastes, nothing so wrong with the melta weapons firing out of a Rhino.

Two dedicated anti-infantry squads equipped with flame templates and HB/HF Razorbacks, and then you're bringing more than enough firepower.

Considering you can bring all those troops somewhere under 1200 points, that's pretty good IMO.

I'd add sponsons to the Baal, Heavy Bolters if I had my druthers.

Can't go wrong with a couple TL autocannon Dreads!

Gabriel Seth looks like fun if you can dodge power fists and Thunder Hammers.

I would trade one squad of Attack bikes for three Sanguinary Priests, especially if you disregard everything else I've written (which you are free to do). Feel No Pain will help any squad live longer, especially the bigger squads you are starting with.

[Henry R]

OK, I like what you're saying, I'll tweak my list and put it here for further critique. Thanks!

[Henry R]

Here's my refined list.

HQ
Mephiston, Lord of Death-250 points

Elite
Furioso Dreadnought-185
Librarian, undermounted heavy flamer, (as far as spells go I psychic powers go, I'd say wings of sanguinis and blood boil, please don't fret to give your opinion on this one)
                 OR
3 Sanguinary priests-185 points
2 with hand flamers
1 with infernus pistol
(I can't decide which will work best, I really like the idea of a furioso librarian dread though, just saying.)

Troops
Assault squad x2-215 points each
1 sergeant with infernus pistol
2 marines with infernus pistols
7 marines with blot pistols and chainswords
Dedicated transport: Rhino x2-15 points each

Assault squad x2-120 each
1 sergeant with hand flamer
1 marine with handflamer
3 marines with bolt pistols and chainswords
Dedicated transport: Razorback with twin linked heavy bolter x2-20 points each

Fast Attack
Baal predator-145
flamestorm cannon, heavy bolter sponsons

Baal predator-145
twin linked assault cannon, heavy bolter sponsons

Attack bike squad-150
3 bikes with multi-meltas

Heavy support
Predator-135
autocannon, lascannon sponsons

Dreadnought x2-125 each
Undermounted heavy flamer, assault cannon, Blood fist

Overall points: exactly 2000 (whether I go for the dread or the priests, love that dread)

[Benjamin]

The competitor in me says Priests. The Dreadnought lover in me says "moar Dreads!"

[Seth]

I think that you should go back to using Gabriel Seth. Just saying.

[Henry R]

Seth looks like fun but he's more of  to me a point sponge, but he's a fun point sponge. I love his massive rending chainsword and his whirlwind of gore move but, he's not really necessary. He might be fun to add at 2500 points though. As far as the dread vs priests situation, I'll just buy both and switch them up depending on the setting and mood I'm in. Dread for fun, generic Thursday night action, and priests for competitive play like tournaments and such. Well anyway, I'm quite happy with this list, and feel it has enough balance to be both fin and competitive. Thank you very much for the help!

[Tharcil]

First let's talk about the troops.  Hand flamers sounds like a great idea, but are only ok at best vs. toughness 3.  I find it is worth giving up that extra CC attack to get real flamers and real melta guns over hand flamers and infernus pistols.  If you decide to go with priests,  power weapons work out better than power fists.  The priests are giving you furious charge, upping the strength and initiative of your attacks, this bonus is pretty much lost on the powerfists, since it doesn't help with the initiative and upping Str to 9 is not much difference than 8 in CC.

For dedicated transports I'm, a huge fan of either Rhinos or Heavy Flamer Razorbacks.  The transports are going to get shot up quickly so spending more points for the big guns on top is a waste.  Transports exist to get your marines 18" on the first turn, so don't over spend here.

Flamestorm Baal is good.  I disagree with Ben on adding sponsons though.  The template is only about 8", so the Baal is going to be moving 12 or slightly less each turn to get into position.  This means that you are only going to be firing one weapon each turn.  The points are better spent elsewhere....heck even Extra armor on the Baal would be preferable to the sponsons (Sorry Ben I think you missed the boat on this one completely).  Baal with the twin assault cannon should definitely have the sponsons though.  Tons of medium strength shots for a decent price.  This works great against light transports and meq infantry as well.

Mephiston is awesome, just remember to keep him out of site or in terrain.  No invulnerable makes him squishy against melta and lascannon shots.

Not sure about the two Dreadnoughts in the heavy spot.  The assault cannons are a good weapon in every game, but I find they are never a great weapon.  I'm a huge fan of the Twinlinked Autocannons x2 on two dreads and keeping them in the back lines as transport killers.

I have no opinion on the bikes, haven't used them in a long while and only with Dark Angels and Vanilla marines lists, so please share how those end up working for you.  Keeping a priest near them might be interesting, Toughness 5, feel no pain!

[Benjamin]

Flamestorm Baal is good.  I disagree with Ben on adding sponsons though.  The template is only about 8", so the Baal is going to be moving 12 or slightly less each turn to get into position.  This means that you are only going to be firing one weapon each turn.  The points are better spent elsewhere....heck even Extra armor on the Baal would be preferable to the sponsons (Sorry Ben I think you missed the boat on this one completely).  Baal with the twin assault cannon should definitely have the sponsons though.  Tons of medium strength shots for a decent price.  This works great against light transports and meq infantry as well.

We may have to agree to disagree, but I'm pretty sure on a boat. The Baal comes with an Assault Cannon standard, and I was never specific about which main gun to take. But the Baal has the option to drive only 6" and still fire all of its weapons, so if I took a Flamestorm Cannon, I'd still take Heavy Bolters too. It has one turn of surprise, so I feel its best to have all the tools to take advantage of that opportunity.

A Flamestorm cannon with Extra Armor and no sponsons as you suggested is 130 points. That's alot to pay for just one situational gun that shows up randomly in both time and place.

fun, generic Thursday night action

Henry, this could be the tagline we've been looking for.

[Henry R]

fun, generic Thursday night action

 Yay! Anyway, the autocannon dreads might be good, I'll review my list and see how it makes me feel. I'll also do this with the sponson choice, I'll take them off the autocannon baal for sure though. Real flamers and meltaguns it is! I also like the idea of a HF on a razorback because I'm charging straight up to enemy infantry with these anyway.

[Moosifer]

HQ -  Good Choice

Elite - Libby Dread, sounds like you are not looking for a upclose in your face blood angels force and the priests dont fit in.  If you using the other 2 dreads I would suggest taking shield of sanguinus and blood lance.

Troops-  Dont take hand flamers and infernus pistols on troop models.  Waaaayyyy to expensive and not worth it for what you doing.  You are spending 90 points on wasted wargear.  Break down and get 2x Melta guns for each squad and power fists for the same point breakdown.  Added bonus is you have a 12 inch range on the meltas and only 6 with the pistols.

As for the "flamer" units, just dont do it.  Also take the points you would use for their wargear to upgrade to las/plas razorbacks or assault cannons.

Fast -  Save your points on the sponsons.  Baal's outflank and cause mayhem with front AV13 and assault cannons.  Heavy Bolters are wasted on them.  If you need to upgrade them, get them extra armor with the points you would use on those sponsons

Bike squad is fine good call

Heavy - Perfect tank, works great with fast tanks.

Dreads are Ok if you take the suggested powers I have said for the libby.

You are looking at an additional 30 something points which can be spent on whatever you think will work.

Brick up move up the middle and melt face.  Game on

[Henry R]

Alright Moosifer, thanks! I really like what you're saying! I love dreads but the two assault cannon ones can go if it will make my list open for better stuff, what, if they go, should take their place though? More predators? Vindicator? Land raider?

[Benjamin]

I feel like I'm missing something. Extra Armor is just reducing Stunned to Shaken, right?

I understand EA on transports. The transports need to move, so any help keeping them moving is good. And if you're starting the Baal Predator on the board, I can see a bit of value in EA.

But if you're outflanking the Baal like you're paying for, what's the point? Plus, if that Stunned result is rolled just one higher for a Weapon Destroyed result instead, a one-weapon Baal becomes a no-weapon tank-shock box, at best.

[Moosifer]

You right a 130 point RAMMING box.  When you have an AV 13 tank that is fast you can go 18 inches and ram say the side armor of a chimera with a strength 10 (max speed) ramming attack, or even better a strength 8 ramming attack at 12 inches.

Having or not having PoTMs is not why you buy the extra armor.  For a Baal and for all blood angels vehicles speed is your life.  If you cannot move a basic space marine can come up and whack a mole you to death.  Barring melta weapons you are looking at a backfield fast vehicle that can ram, shoot or contest objectives or table quarters.

edit:  Ben that was also me suggesting if he is desperate to spend the points on his baals, EA is a better choice than heavy bolters

[Benjamin]

One thing I love about the Blood Angels codex is that there's no right way to play it, lots of effective options. I have Daemon fatigue of smashing into things and getting lit up in the following phase. So I'd rather be shooting. Where everyone brings melta if they can, I don't want to help the opponent by driving toward it. But it's all very situational, and the Baal can adapt well. That's the takeaway here.