2000 Space Marines List, advice needed

[Benjamin]

#1 2 weapons types so if a weapon distroyed is rolled you still got the other

Is that true? Is it like sponsons where you buy the option, but get two distinct weapons?

[Ed]

#1 2 weapons types so if a weapon distroyed is rolled you still got the other

Is that true? Is it like sponsons where you buy the option, but get two distinct weapons?

yes my friend they are 2 systems if they were one you could move 6 and fire both

[Tharcil]

HQ
Librarian - Null Zone, Gate (100)  - Not a great choice, and neither of these powers are doing anything for you.  Rethink this completely.  Vulcan or techmarine on a bike might fit what you are doing with everything else much better.

Elite
Dreadnought - x2 TLAC (125) - Very good
Dreadnought - x2 TLAC (125) - Very good
Ironclad Dreadnought - Drop Pod (170) - Very fun, but you will likely find it is not effective for the point cost.

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 - Melta, Missile Launcher, Razorback (215) Combi-melta on serg...
Tactical Squad x10 - Melta, Missile Launcher, Razorback (215) Combi-melta on serg...
Tactical Squad x10 - Flamer, Missile Launcher, Razorback (210) Combi-flamer on serg...
Scouts x5 - x4 Sniper Rifles, Combi-melta, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks (100) Ditch the cloaks upgrade serg to Telion
Scouts x5 - x4 Sniper Rifles, Combi-melta, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks (100)

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Squadron x2 - x1 Multi-melta each (120)  This sounds like a good idea, but these are likely going to all get blased off the table in a single turn.  Only way these could reliably get points back would be with running Vulcan.  Even then 6 is too many.
Land Speeder Squadron x2 - x1 Multi-melta each (120)
Land Speeder Squadron x2 (100)

Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon (100)  This is going to be fun, but again you'll find these are going to be the first thing shot off the board every game.
Thunderfire Cannon (100)
Thunderfire Cannon (100)

I like the concept of the list.  The problem here at 2000 points is that not only do you not have a single dedicated CC squad, but nothing to effectively tar pit or counterattack with.  My other concern is that everything on your list is a so fragile. 5 man squads, artillery, 11 and 10 armor vehicles.  This is going to get shot off the board real quick.  You'll have fun when you go first and look for something else to play every time you go second.

[Bromeo]

Ben, your new list is looking really good btw, there's just a few things I think should go.

First, that one Land Speeder. I don't get what it's purpose doing there. It seems like it's just going to be there for an easy KP for the enemy to gain. Don't make any none sense, so unless you upgrade it to have other things, it's pointless.

Second, the dilemma of the Razorback. TBQH, your troops are totally geared for Rapid Fire range and, in general, any form of Close Quarters Combat, which is why I question the usage of LasPlas Razorbacks. I mean, I get the fact that getting a Lascannon and TL Plasma Gun for 35 pts is awesome, but I don't get the fact that you have to push the 48" gun closer towards the enemy. Not to mention that Assault Cannons have a better chance of popping most tanks (save for AV12).

[Dissimulation]

I can attest for Bassma's notion about the LasPlas razorbacks. I've played plenty of games versus him where either his troops never did anything because the razorbacks weren't moving to shoot both guns, or his Razorbacks only got to shoot 1 gun. However, It is effective versus lists that come to you, because you can sit back and shoot the LasPlas and pop out the troops when you need them.

[Benjamin]

First, that one Land Speeder. I don't get what it's purpose doing there. It seems like it's just going to be there for an easy KP for the enemy to gain. Don't make any none sense, so unless you upgrade it to have other things, it's pointless.

It's use would be exactly in the fact that it's disposable. If a players shoots at it, it's only a 60 point unit. If a player ignores it, it's still a multi-melta. It can run interference, blocks lanes of travel and lines of sight. It's a mosquito.

Second, the dilemma of the Razorback. TBQH, your troops are totally geared for Rapid Fire range and, in general, any form of Close Quarters Combat, which is why I question the usage of LasPlas Razorbacks. I mean, I get the fact that getting a Lascannon and TL Plasma Gun for 35 pts is awesome, but I don't get the fact that you have to push the 48" gun closer towards the enemy. Not to mention that Assault Cannons have a better chance of popping most tanks (save for AV12).

It's not the 48" lascannon getting pushed closer, but the 24" inch plasma gun and the 12" rapid-fire plasma gun getting pushed closer. Pop vehicles to start, pop heavy infantry mid-to-late game.

I'll have to check the math on Assault cannons popping transports vs the other options.

[Rurouni Benshin]

It's use would be exactly in the fact that it's disposable. If a players shoots at it, it's only a 60 point unit. If a player ignores it, it's still a multi-melta. It can run interference, blocks lanes of travel and lines of sight. It's a mosquito.

If you're already writing it off as "disposable", my advice would be to invest the points into something else, preferably another unit (or two, or three) to make it stronger/more survivable/better.

Land Speeders (at least in my mind) are those units that if you ignore for too long, will always come back and bite you.  If it were me playing against a single Land Speeder, I'd probably send at least 1 or 2 Missiles at it, just to keep it from shooting.  While that does divert attention away from your other AV's, it isn't conceivably difficult to incapacitate it for the entire game.  Which is why I would either A) Run at least 1-2 more Land Speeders, spreading them into 2-3 different units or B) don't use them at all.

It may be a 60 point diversion, but if you're only consuming 1 or 2 Missile Launchers from the enemy, is it really worth it?

Looking at your adjusted list, here're my other suggestions:

1.  The Scouts are adding very little to your list.  I would suggest taking a Devastator Squad instead.  Granted, this would mean you having to lose one TFC though.  However, for 230 points, you can have a squad of Devastators with 4 Missile Launchers.  And if you Combat Squad them, that'll give you 2 squads with 2 ML's, hiding in 2 different terrain structures (which can still be Bolstered by the 2 other Techmarines manning your other TFC's).

2.  If you decide to go that route, that'll leave you with 70 points, which would be ideal for another Land Speeder with MM/HF.  Now your other "mosquito" has a partner in crime.  

With this in mind, you now have 4 less TFC templates and 8 Sniper Shots, but have replaced it with 2 extra Missile launchers, and another Multi-Melta and/or Heavy Flamer.  Your Anti-Tank is more reliable, both in strength and range, and (IMHO) have sacrificed very little of anything else for it.  I understand this is taking a hit to your "flair", and I apologize if that's not what you're willing to give up on, but it's just my 2 cents.  Hope you found it helpful.  

[Banosby]

What's the purpose of the list? Teaching people how to play? Putting out a soft list to get people acclimated to the game? Crushing souls before they know what they're doing?

I guess I'm just a bit confused about what sort of list advice you're looking for. If you're trying to teach people how to play the game, you want a fairly soft list with a lot of different unit types, with a slant towards units that they'll actually see on the table.

So, something that can infiltrate (Scouts are good here).
Something that can turboboost (Speeders are good here).
Something that can deepstrike (Speeders are also good here, although I'd go with Terminators).
Something that can shoot (Tac squads are good here).
Something that can assault (Assault marines or Terminators).
Some light AV (Rhino/Razorback)
Some higher AV (Predator, Ironclad)
Something with powers (Librarian)
Something with templates/blasts (lots of options).

Avoid spam, except maybe in tactical squads. With your current list, a new player will think that all SM armies have Thunderfire Canons.

Try to get some assault terminators in there, even if they're on foot. They're so common, people should know what they are.

If you're looking for advice on how to make a hard list, all that is moot of course. I kinda like your list. Not super competitive, but fun and competitive enough. I'd drop the scouts and the Ironclad, add in another Rifleman, and...I dunno, something else. Maybe put the scouts in a speeder so they have options.

[Ed]

avoid spam? then what do you think about this list from belloflostsouls

Blood Angels "Wing Striker" - 2,000 points

HQ
Librarian - shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Librarian - shield of sanguinus & unleash rage
Honour Guard w/ Razorback - 2 x flamers - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun
Honour Guard w/ Razorback - 2 x meltaguns - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasma gun

Elite
1 x Sanguinary Priest

Troops
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x flamer - sgt w/ power weapon - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun
5 x Assault Marines w/ Razorback - 1 x meltagun - Razorback w/ lascannon & twin-linked plasmagun

Heavy Support
Vindicator
Vindicator

spam maybe a very cheap meat but its really good

[Loranus]

Why shouldnt all Space Marine Armies have Thunderfire cannons?

[Ed]

Why shouldnt all Space Marine Armies have Thunderfire cannons?

love it

[Dissimulation]

Would you like to play-test this list versus me, ben? I'm looking for a 2k point game next thursday (if the power is restored )

[Banosby]

I think it kind of sucks. But I never said that spam doesn't make good lists and if you've ever seen me play in a tournament, you know I'm not opposed to spamming effective units.

The point was that Ben seemed to be looking for a list to teach people how to play with. And spam, I submit, isn't a good way to teach people the basics of the game. If you spam one unit, it teaches them the basics of that unit, and nothing else. If you use a variety of units, they learn a variety of things.

But if Ben is looking for a SM list that will win a lot of games, spam away.

[Benjamin]

I'm gonna edit my first post. That should bring people up to speed a bit faster.

As for the purpose of the list, Banosby has asked some very good questions. Maybe I should include more tools from the toolbox, to show new people what's possible. My original list slants toward that. The secondary list has some competitive creep, because losing is stupid. Oh, and I have heard rumors of tri-Thunderfire Cannons success.

Ed, Banosby certainly knows what spam is. 11 Immolators packed with 5 girls and 2 meltas is spam for the ages.

Pat, have you read all the rules yet for Thunderfire Cannons?

For those curious, a Space Marine list I feel might be competitive from me would look something like...
Librarian
(5x) Tac x10, melta, ML, Razorback
(3x) Dev x5, x4 ML
(3x) Rifleman Dread
2000 even, and boring as all get out.

[Benjamin]

If you're already writing it off as "disposable", my advice would be to invest the points into something else, preferably another unit (or two, or three) to make it stronger/more survivable/better.

Land Speeders (at least in my mind) are those units that if you ignore for too long, will always come back and bite you.  If it were me playing against a single Land Speeder, I'd probably send at least 1 or 2 Missiles at it, just to keep it from shooting.  While that does divert attention away from your other AV's, it isn't conceivably difficult to incapacitate it for the entire game.  Which is why I would either A) Run at least 1-2 more Land Speeders, spreading them into 2-3 different units or B) don't use them at all.

It may be a 60 point diversion, but if you're only consuming 1 or 2 Missile Launchers from the enemy, is it really worth it?

Looking at your adjusted list, here're my other suggestions:

1.  The Scouts are adding very little to your list.  I would suggest taking a Devastator Squad instead.  Granted, this would mean you having to lose one TFC though.  However, for 230 points, you can have a squad of Devastators with 4 Missile Launchers.  And if you Combat Squad them, that'll give you 2 squads with 2 ML's, hiding in 2 different terrain structures (which can still be Bolstered by the 2 other Techmarines manning your other TFC's).

2.  If you decide to go that route, that'll leave you with 70 points, which would be ideal for another Land Speeder with MM/HF.  Now your other "mosquito" has a partner in crime.  

With this in mind, you now have 4 less TFC templates and 8 Sniper Shots, but have replaced it with 2 extra Missile launchers, and another Multi-Melta and/or Heavy Flamer.  Your Anti-Tank is more reliable, both in strength and range, and (IMHO) have sacrificed very little of anything else for it.  I understand this is taking a hit to your "flair", and I apologize if that's not what you're willing to give up on, but it's just my 2 cents.  Hope you found it helpful.  

The reason I put the list out is for criticism, feedback and advice, and it would less than fair if I took any of it personally.

I do like at least one squad of Scouts. The squad's only 100 or so points, and for that I get a ML in there, 4 snipers (rending poison guns sound good to me) and they'll fit well with the Techmarine's Bolster Defenses for a 2+ cover save. (On boards without ruins, a bit less awesome, but at least an excuse to throw a temper tantrum and show n00bs how to whine.)

Initially, I had like six Land Speeders. The mosquito swarm! They're a tough unit to manage regardless of number. So much of their success I feel lies within the board, if there's terrain enough to Turbo Boost behind cover and into position and other pieces big enough to give cover saves.

... The tact the conversation is taking almost has me thinking, maybe I should have various levels of the army. Fluffy fun, somewhat spam, and hell difficulty. Though I should try to get one list done before making 3 lists.