2000 Space Marines List, advice needed

[Benjamin]

I've spent enough time teaching 40k at the store now that Daemons don't do the job well. They're fun, but not informative to the game everyone else is playing.

Spehss Muhreens, for the Emprah! It's a great benchmark codex with lots of options. This will be the first time I build a list and then build the army.

I'm playing under one condition, or rather three conditions: Thunderfire Cannons. Consider it my flair. But the list I've drawn up doesn't look quite right, so I'll put it out for open discussion.

HQ
Librarian - Null Zone, Gate (100)

Elite
Dreadnought - x2 TLAC (125)
Dreadnought - x2 TLAC (125)
Ironclad Dreadnought - Drop Pod (170)

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 - Melta, Missile Launcher, Razorback (215)
Tactical Squad x10 - Melta, Missile Launcher, Razorback (215)
Tactical Squad x10 - Flamer, Missile Launcher, Razorback (210)
Scouts x5 - x4 Sniper Rifles, Combi-melta, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks (100)
Scouts x5 - x4 Sniper Rifles, Combi-melta, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks (100)

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Squadron x2 - x1 Multi-melta each (120)
Land Speeder Squadron x2 - x1 Multi-melta each (120)
Land Speeder Squadron x2 (100)

Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon (100)
Thunderfire Cannon (100)
Thunderfire Cannon (100)

2000 total points.

There's some decent synergy. The Techmarines can Bolster Defenses, which the Scouts, Tac MLs, and Thunderfire Cannons can utilize. The Librarian can live wherever I need him to, but there's no default position yet. The Ironclad Dread in a Drop Pod is meant as a trouble-causing distraction, hopefully holding some enemy units in place.

This list doesn't seem to have enough of a forward presence, but I'm coming from Daemons, which is *all* forward presence. I've built quite a bit of shooting, which I hear happens during the Running Phase. Sounds exciting!

Second version, looking something like...

HQ
Librarian (Terminator Armor, Storm Shield, Null Zone, Gate of Infinity) - 140

Elite
Assault Terminator Squad x9 (x9 TH/SS)
Dreadnought (TLAC x2) - 125
Dreadnought (TLAC x2) - 125

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 (Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Combi-Melta, Razorback) - 225
Tactical Squad x10 (Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Combi-Melta, Razorback) - 225
Tactical Squad x10 (Flamer, Missile Launcher, Combi-Flamer, Razorback) - 220
Scouts x5 (x4 Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks) - 100
Scouts x5 (x4 Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks) - 100

Fast Attack
Land Speeder (Multi-melta) - 60

Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon 100
Thunderfire Cannon 100
Thunderfire Cannon 100

[Loranus]

Your Librarian probably can sit in one of the Razorbacks since you don't have terminatour armor on him which you must be careful of abusing Psychic powers since he doesn't have an invuln and only 2 wounds. If hes not an Epistolary and maybe others can argue against it I wouldn't put him in assault at all. Popping Null Zone and not being able to use your Force Weapon would be an issue. Gate is great if you have him with some type of squad like Termis and dont have a transport but lackluster otherwise since its debatable you can use it to get out of CC. Firing line to heck and back really not much I can say about that and you really don't need much of a forward presence with it considering your list probably wont let the enemy make it to you.   Monstrous Creatures the Auto-cannons will serve you well just as much as Thunderfire Cannons. Your major issue to deal with is outflanking assault type units but even then proper placement can hopefully avoid or minimize the damage from it.

[Benjamin]

The HQ choice is definitely one spot of the list where I'm not feeling comfortable. The Librarian is taken purely as a "utility vs points" choice. I intend to keep the Librarian back, but Librarians usually die. Null Zone and psychic hood could win the day, and I don't see any other HQ bringing that potential.

[Ed]

I am not a fan of playing hqs that are alot of points and dont have ew but the 100 point libby is great for its cost. and for teaching he is great to show the person how pykers work
as for the list is pretty good i dont know how you feel about combi weapons but i think combi meltas would help in your tac squads or even a combi flamer flamer.
i really like thunderfire cannons but they die so easy maybe if you could add some more mech somewhere to block los for them in case off you get turn 2 and they get blow off the board
i mean rhinos are like 35 points so cheap.

as for your scout what are you plans for them why a combi melta? what is was your thinking behind it
what do the 3 plan landspeeders have hf or hb .

in this list you have alot of late game presence the landspeeders can do end game blitz just like screamers but unlike screamers they pack a punch.

[Bill]

Ben,

I really like this alot. What do u have on the razorbacks? My suggestion would be las plasma. My suggestion for the list in general would be maybe to drop the unit of 2 speeders and the iron clad and put in a big ole unit of Thss termies I'm talking like ten. Combine this w the Libby and u have either a walking hulk or gate them to the front and just dare people to deal with them.

 Might not be bad to try and fit a locator beacon I there for this reason. My suggestion would
Be on an empty drop pod u buy for a thunderfire ( I think they can take beacons.) this can of
Course drop pod assault.

[Bromeo]

HQ
Librarian - Null Zone, Gate (100)

Elite
Dreadnought - x2 TLAC (125)
Dreadnought - x2 TLAC (125)
Ironclad Dreadnought - Drop Pod (170)

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 - Melta, Missile Launcher, Razorback (215)
Tactical Squad x10 - Melta, Missile Launcher, Razorback (215)
Tactical Squad x10 - Flamer, Missile Launcher, Razorback (210)
Scouts x5 - x4 Sniper Rifles, Combi-melta, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks (100)
Scouts x5 - x4 Sniper Rifles, Combi-melta, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks (100)

Fast Attack
Land Speeder Squadron x2 - x1 Multi-melta each (120)
Land Speeder Squadron x2 - x1 Multi-melta each (120)
Land Speeder Squadron x2 (100)

Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon (100)
Thunderfire Cannon (100)
Thunderfire Cannon (100)

2000 total points.

I'll segment my post by FOC slot. First off is the Libby.

Libby seems to be pretty good, although I question the usage of GoI, since IDK how, who, or what you're running him with. Otherwise, Null is always a good choice, especially against your former Army. (Poor Daemons...)

Troops:
(I'll start with the Tac Squads, seeing as how they're the bread and butter of any Nilla Wafer SM list)
Your Tac Squads are chosen pretty well, and seeing that you have plenty of Dakka not only on the normal Bolterbacks, but in the Tac Squad itself, however, the Meltagun in squads 1 and 2 are *somewhat* questionable, lots emphasis on somewhat. Combat Squadding the M.L. is always a good idea, gives your M.L. a good shot at shooting important things like AV13 and lower and shooting MCs.

Onto the Scouts, which is where I see somewhat of a problem:

Scouts x5 - x4 Sniper Rifles, Combi-melta, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks

This Combi-Melta. It really doesn't mesh together well with the rest of the squad, considering you can only pop it at 12in or less, and you'd want to be within assault range to make it even more killy, which clashes with your Snipers' 36" and your M.L.s' 48". You should probably drop it, it'd be a good point saver.

Elites:
Riflemen Dreads, good choice, always good as a Transport buster, and seeing your units are going to get up close and personal, it indeed does synergize well. The Ironclad that DPs, that's going to be vverrryyy annoying for them. I've never actually ran one of them, so when you do play with it, tell me how it goes, I'd like to hear how effective they are.

Fast Attack:
This is where it gets kinda odd.

For your 4 Melta Land Speeders, you're taking 2 in a squad in 2 separate slots and taking 1 Multi-Melta on one of them, but you're pricing it for 120. I might need some more explanation on that one, since you should be paying just 110 for one Force Org. Slot. The two plain Land Speeders are questionable too, since you can make them a whole lot more killyer than just Hvy. Bolters.

Heavy Support:
AWW YEAH THUNDERFIRE CANNONS. I've only seen one person run them, which is disappointing, since they seem pretty sweet and tougher, especially since you're Bolstering Defense with the Tech Marines. Tell me how these go too.

Conclusion:
All in all, this is a good list, with some questionable decisions, but otherwise good.

[Loranus]

I think he has a Multi-melta on each Landspeeder in the squad. 1x each meaning 1 multi-melta on each landspeeder in the squad.

 The Combi-melta I can see what your saying Bromeo for the 10 points from that but he made Math Error also. the Squad costs 75+15(camo Cloaks)+10(Missile Launcher)+10 (Combi-Melta) making them 110 points he needs to drop the combi-melta anyways to make them match 100 points but it also looks like he dropped both the Bolt Pistol and Bolter on the Sergeant so he has both the Combi-Melta and Sniper Rifle on him so he has the long range of the sniper rifle not losing the squad synergy.

I agree with Bromeo Gate is the kinda spell you use to drop stuff immediately closer to the enemy whether this be a Squad of Termies or a Melta Gun to pop a serious tank threat.

Things I would change drop the bare Landspeeder squad supe up the others with another weapon. You have 100 points to play with there so If you want to you can add the combi-melta to your scout squads letting them infiltrate and get in an early pop on a tank if you have first turn. That would leave you 80 points if you want some more Anti-Inf on your land speeders you can for 20 points more on each squad you can give them a Heavy Flamer or a Heavy Bolter. that would leave you 40 points which you can supe up your Librarian with a Terminatour Armor Storm Shield and drop  Null or Gate for Vortex of Doom .

[Benjamin]

I've taken some advice, and have a new list.

HQ
Librarian (Terminator Armor, Storm Shield, Null Zone, Gate of Infinity) - 140

Elite
Assault Terminator Squad x9 (x9 TH/SS)
Dreadnought (TLAC x2) - 125
Dreadnought (TLAC x2) - 125

Troops
Tactical Squad x10 (Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Combi-Melta, Razorback) - 225
Tactical Squad x10 (Meltagun, Missile Launcher, Combi-Melta, Razorback) - 225
Tactical Squad x10 (Flamer, Missile Launcher, Combi-Flamer, Razorback) - 220
Scouts x5 (x4 Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks) - 100
Scouts x5 (x4 Sniper Rifles, Missile Launcher, Camo Cloaks) - 100

Fast Attack
Land Speeder (Multi-melta) - 60

Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon 100
Thunderfire Cannon 100
Thunderfire Cannon 100

It's a list with far fewer concerns, for sure.

I prefer the Razorbacks as TL Heavy Bolters, quantity vs quality.

This is a great revised draft. Still open to suggestions, but thanks to all for the ideas!

[Ian Mulligan]

I like this list a lot. My only suggestion would be maybe assault cannons on the razorbacks. I know you lose some range, but the versatility may be worth it. I've never used them on anything that wasn't fast, so it they may not be as good here as I think.

[Benjamin]

That above list I think is actually 1980 points... hmm...

I like this list a lot. My only suggestion would be maybe assault cannons on the razorbacks. I know you lose some range, but the versatility may be worth it. I've never used them on anything that wasn't fast, so it they may not be as good here as I think.

Sam is a fan of assault cannons as well, he likes to see them as often as possible.

On the Razorbacks, my gut says its throwing good points after bad, because they're sitting only AV 11. They're certainly beautiful on Baal Predators, no debate here.

The range difference isn't too bad. HBs at 36" and ACs at 24", certainly fast vehicles make this difference up effortlessly. For the short time they're alive, the ACs should have plenty of targets across no man's land. And the ACs have a much higher potential than the HBs (both being twin-linked).

Here's how I'd fit them in @ 105 pts, on the quick.

If I did my math wrong like I think I did, that's 85 points I need to free up... Take out the Land Speeder and 1 Assault Terminator. Leaves 15 points left over. And then I could buy a teleport homer on the Scouts.

Okay, short conclusion. Where before I started writing I had an answer, now I'm completely conflicted.

[Loranus]

Its 35 point Upgrade on the Razorback to get the Assault Cannon on them its a rather expensive upgrade for the vehicle to get especially 3 of them and right here its really not that useful considering anything you want the Assault Cannon for the Thunderfire Cannons can probably handle just as well with the additional range on it as well as versatility of fire. Your giving up by this post an additional unit which can easily either draw fire away or take out vehicles with ease and a very durable infantry that can also do exactly what you would grab the Assault Cannons for. With the Additional 20 points you could grab a Teleport homer or again throw another weapon on your Landspeeder another Multi-melta if you want to make it a little more deadly to Monstrous Creatures a Heavy Flamer or Heavy Bolter for Anti-Infantry use.

[Ed]

my 2000 point list have 5 razorback with 3 las/plas and 2 ass cannons and for what they are like 80 points they make their points back very easily

[Benjamin]

I'll have it looks like 120 points to tweak. Let's say for the following post the Scout teleport homer is in.

With the remaining 105, it's...

• 3 Las/Plas backs, great anti-Elite shooting that can also handle tougher vehicles.
• 3 TL Assault Cannon backs, good for almost any target.
• Land Speeder w/ Multi-melta, 1 Assault Terminator, and 5 points.

With the Las/Plas, I'm far more comfortable taking on AV 14. With Assault Cannons, I'm putting more effective anti-infantry shots on the board.

What might be reasonable is what Ed does, a mix of the two, in my case maybe 2 Las/Plas backs and 1 TL assault cannon.

[Ed]

i like las plas for a few reasons
#1 2 weapons types so if a weapon distroyed is rolled you still got the other
#2 good for killing light tanks you can go for the hail mary which to me is  shoting av14 but thats a hail mary 2 me.
#3 cheap as shit even cheaper as ba but i'd rather us tac marines.

and the ass cannon or assault cannon its so good how could you pass it up

with the current meta at bgp the assault cannon should out preform the las pas i just prefer it

[Benjamin]

with the current meta at bgp the assault cannon should out preform the las pas i just prefer it

Mmm, I noticed I have some meta-creep that's coloring my opinion here. Straight mathhammer won't win out against some of the crazy stuff we see.