500 Points about 500 Points (Lists, Touraments & Rules, oh my!)

[Sir_Prometheus]

Yes, the very high end.  I wouldn't expect the Tau list to have any trouble with that at all.  Nothing in that army can even scratch the Hammerheads (good luck getting those MM even with 24" of me), and the Tau should be able to reliably open up at least one chimera a turn.  The weakness of a list like that is that the troops inside might as well be smoke.

The foot GK list would have some trouble from the dakka.  The solution, of course, is to DS on their position, shoot side armor for a likely pop and get stuck in the turn after.  That's easier to say than to do, of course. 

[keithb]

You are aware it is a 4x4 table.  How do you expect to be able to be more than 24" away for more than 1 turn?

[Dissimulation]

Yeah, with deployment, movement, and a nice surround a tau devilfish isn't going to be able to outmanuever 5 chimeras on a 4x4 board.

[canadianone]

try this one out for size. either this

shas'el
TL missile pods, flamer
shield drone

3x 2x shas'ui
TL missile pods, flamer

6x fire warriors

10x kroot


boom
or

shas'el
TL fusion guns, flamer
black sun filter 

2x 6x fire warriors

broadside
black sun filter

broadside
black sun filter

2x broadside
1 with target lock
1with gun drone



boom. 4 broadsides. be that guy, i dare you.

[Benjamin]

boom. 4 broadsides. be that guy, i dare you.

Ha, yeah sure, because no one is bringing a cheap horde list at all. 

[Sir_Prometheus]

You are aware it is a 4x4 table.  How do you expect to be able to be more than 24" away for more than 1 turn?

Because the Chimeras with the Multi-meltas can't move and fire, at all.  And while they can advance 12" and fire the turn after, that's not that scary.  First of all, pretty sure I can pop those two chimeras by turn 2.  Second, while a Melta at 24" can kill a hammerhead, it's very unlikely to. 

[Sir_Prometheus]

try this one out for size. either this

shas'el
TL missile pods, flamer
shield drone

3x 2x shas'ui
TL missile pods, flamer

6x fire warriors

10x kroot


boom
or

shas'el
TL fusion guns, flamer
black sun filter 

2x 6x fire warriors

broadside
black sun filter

broadside
black sun filter

2x broadside
1 with target lock
1with gun drone



boom. 4 broadsides. be that guy, i dare you.

In the first list I would want either a Fusion blaster or two, or a Broadside.  It's just that if some kackass brings predators, or hammerheads, vindicators, or even a Land Raider (yes, you can fit it) you have literally no answer to that.

Conversely, in the second list, I don't see why you need 4 Broadsides.  I think realistically, you won't see more than 3 rhinos.  (I think the 5 chimera list is a little silly)  Congrats, you kill those pretty much first turn.  Now what?  You're killing a little less than 2 MEQs a turn, in cover with them?

[Benjamin]

Because the Chimeras with the Multi-meltas can't move and fire, at all.  And while they can advance 12" and fire the turn after, that's not that scary.  First of all, pretty sure I can pop those two chimeras by turn 2.  Second, while a Melta at 24" can kill a hammerhead, it's very unlikely to. 

Does your math account for cover saves?

[Dissimulation]

Also, any damage on the hammerhead is crippling. 1 means that almost 40% of your army won't be able to shoot for an entire turn. 2 is the same, except you won't be able to run from the meltas. 3 is absolutely devastating for obvious reasons, 4 means you can't run from the meltas, and 5 and 6? well they just suck.

[Sir_Prometheus]

Well, yes, the Hammerhead does get cover from anything outside of 12".  

As far as the chimera goes, I hadn't actually done the math, but.....even with smoke launchers, not terribly worried about it.

Say the two vehicles start 24.1" apart.  First turn 12" move, pop smoke, now it's 12.1" away (realistically, I can probably slide side ways get a little more distance, but whatever).  Now the MMs can either stay there.......or not shoot.

My chance to "stop" a Chimera with a rail gun is 51.85%, obviously half that if they popped smoke.  29.63% chance to kill.

For the Ion cannon, it's 29.77% to "stop", 10.7% to kill, half with smoke.  

This is assuming, in both cases that I don't veer to the corners, making him chase each hammerhead with each chimera, and I am then able to "cross the streams" and hit the other chimera in the side.  (hint: terrain permitting, I can probably do that)

Now, conversely, each Multi-Melta, outside 12", has a 6.25% chance to "stop"  (weapon destoyed and shaken aren't counted in this, but I don't feel like recalculating everything) and a 3.01% chance to kill the hammerhead (this is counting cover).  WHHHHHHHHHEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!

Granted, he does have 6 meltas, but I just don't think it will even get to that point, and the chances are pretty low even if they do.  

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnFuN-yY7GTydDNHWnZMUHhXaGdkR3ZYQ1ZGQ2FabXc&hl=en_US&pli=1#gid=0

I'm getting my data from this spreadsheet I started, but others have been collaborating on it since, so I'm not in complete control of it anymore.  For instance, the Hammerhead Rail gun calculations under the "Tau" tab look to be just plain wrong, but I had separate calculations under the "calculations page" that I used.  

[Dissimulation]

What happens when he comes at you from two angles?

[Sir_Prometheus]

Also, any damage on the hammerhead is crippling. 1 means that almost 40% of your army won't be able to shoot for an entire turn.

Well, yeah, but that's kinda like the hypothetical LR list at 500 pts.  If the LR dies, you're f**'d, the thing is, that's probably pretty hard to do.  

2 is the same, except you won't be able to run from the meltas. 3 is absolutely devastating for obvious reasons, 4 means you can't run from the meltas, and 5 and 6? well they just suck.

Not sure what you're getting at here.  The MMs can't move and shoot, and that makes it actually pretty hard for them to target something that wants to run from them, even on a small board.  Also, the list referenced only has 2 MM groups, that's apparently all that they can afford, and you can really only have two groups of them anyway, since they need to be escorted by a inquisitor or they'll have a brain fart.    

I don't like MMs servitors, they seem to depend upon your enemy being stupid.  The 5 chimera list seems ok, since it has a good volume of Dakka, but it'll fall flat against the Hammerheads.

Hammerheads really have to worry about Deepstriking/outflanking Meltas, and to a lesser extent, fast MMs like on land speeders and attack bikes.  

[Sir_Prometheus]

What happens when he comes at you from two angles?

You mean like from the front left and the front right?  Then that's great!  It means I get side shots on AV10 with the other hammerhead.  That's what I meant when I said "crossing the streams".

[Benjamin]

Chimeras needn't rely on smoke launchers for cover, they can use each other and terrain for cover as well.

Also, the melta weapons are not on the Chimera, but rather wielded by the soldiers inside. Destroying up the transport is just Step 1.

[Bill]

This is all fantastic conversation I am really enjoying it but it will without a doubt be infantry that win at 500 pt games I think to Ben's point what is inside is a huge part of it. Than again  I am so lost at this point level so I am super excited even though I feel like a total newbie. With the experience i have in my practice games, 30 man shoota boyz, battlesuits, and bladestorming dire avengers (yeah that's right!) scare me more than anything so far. Than again, I play daemons.