500 Points about 500 Points (Lists, Touraments & Rules, oh my!)

[Ed]

oh hey 5s to hit 6s to wound

[Loranus]

Changes are going to that list not just you but the game after I had some issues. The Bikes don't hold up well in the Mid-range to close area with the low Model count and the smaller table size doesn't let me utilize them to the best of their ability.

New List Idea:

Captain on a Bike-Relic Blade
2 Bike Squad- 3 Regular bikes, Melta Bike, and Attack Bike with Heavy Bolter

I get one more Wound out of the squad and an additional 3 shots at Strength 5. I lose Close Combat stuff but If I am assaulting a Squad my Captain will be going with them to handle that aspect.

[Benjamin]

Don't forget bikes have Relentless, that's part of what makes them good. I'd play keep-away with the bikes and shoot people from a distance.

In my case, I landed well and you thought it better to assault. But I would have had a hard time catching you, even with wings. I'll gladly give you a rematch if you want to try that tactic, because I think it would be more effective. And it's unlikely I'd get a bike squad to run away again.

[Loranus]

Ya well this new strategy is to focus more on that generally the smaller board hurts the list more than helps it because I have a tighter circle to run around in.

Range shots at 24" on old list maxed out at 11 the New List would make it 17 with those extra shots being strength 5. 12" makes it now 2 melta guns and still have 24 bolter type shots coming at you old list gave me 1 melta and about 20 Bolter shots.

The only thing I would suffer with the new List is that close combat aspect but the only things I really want to assault are Tau and Necrons.

Ya charging into Bloodthirster wasn't the best move but it was practice and the numbers just don't work for it and now I saw where I would like to go with it.

Sure I would love a rematch hopefully I will have some stuff painted and can be there Next Thursday or something.

[Bill]

Been playing around with this list this week testing against my nightmare; DE (2 venoms, 2 ravagers.) Fairly happy with how it has played although I can certainly see some issues I may have. I would love to find the points to put in either another fiend or change the instruments to rending in the crusher unit.

Herald of Tzeentch- Chariot, Bolt of Tzeentch 95
2 Bloodcrushers- instrument 85
2 Bloodcrushers- instrument 85
2 Fiends 60
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Horrors 95

Going to mess around with list today and hopefully get some more testing in. Might drop one crusher and do one unit of 3. Should let me do what I want but then I have to rely more on multi assault.

[Benjamin]

Bill, the only thing I'd probably consider testing is a naked (or close to it) Herald of Khorne. It can free up some points to beef up the other units. The Herald can live with a Bloodcrusher squad.

[Destecado]

My worry is Nids with monstrous creatures, highly mechanized units and lists that take termniators as troops.  I've been toying with a list to counter such armies, but I'm worried that it might leave me too light on troops.

1 Space Marine Librarian with Smite and Machine Curse  100 pts
5 Scouts with sniper rifles  75 pts
5 Scouts with sniper rifles  75 pts
2 Predator Destructors     120 pts (ea)

The left over 10 points will probably go to melta bombs for the Scout Sgts.  


As an alternative I would replace one of the Predators with a Vindicator, thereby saving 5 points, leaving me with 15 pts that I would use on camo cloaks for one of the scout units; hopefully improving their survivability.  

[Benjamin]

The Space Marines and most MEQ armies have a difficult time at 500, no doubt. I've written up some SM lists in this thread, and they're okay, but they don't bring all the tools I would need.

My first 500 SM lists looked like yours, but I realized Scouts are too inconvenient as my only Troops choice. If the Scouts move out of terrain, they're essentially dead. The Librarian didn't quite fit in anywhere. And mathhammer suggested against the threats you've rightly assessed, I'd probably be off the table faster than I care to be.

I think the front AV 13 of Predators could hold up nicely, though. If you end up taking a Tac squad, you'd only be able to afford one of them.

So here's another list.
Librarian, Null Zone & Might of the Ancients
Tac x5, Sarge w/ combi-melta & power fist, Rhino
Tac x5, Sarge w/ combi-melta, power sword & meltabombs, Rhino
Scouts x5, Sniper rifles x4, Missile Launcher

And if you like the Predators more, take out a Tac squad for 2 or the Scout squad for 1.

[Destecado]

Yeah, the rhinos might offer more protection, but the are definitely a points sink.  I totally agree that lack of cover makes taking Scouts a risky proposition, but the savings in points that they offer is hard to ignore.  One of the first army lists I devised addressed this weakness by padding out their numbers.   

2 (10 man) Sniper Squads - 9x Sniper Rifles & Missile Launcher
1 Space Marine Librarian - w/ Null Zone & Machine Curse
1 Space Marine Librarian - w/ Smite & Machine Curse

The advantage to the 10 man Scout squads is survivablity and the increased statistical probablity of rending with the increased number of sniper shots.  The disadvantages are of course trying to hie such a large squad in cover, vulnerability to being charged, and the small size of the board not really being optimal for "standoff and shoot armies",  There is also a sever lack of heavy firepower. 

One alternative that I've considered is dropping the Second Librarian in favor of a Squad of 2 Attack Bikes with multi-meltas.  I would also trade out the missile launchers, in the scout squads, for heavy bolters. I lose the heavy punch to take out vehicles, but wounding on 2+ (special ammo) might be more useful.  The heavy bolter's higher rate of fire also increases the statisitcal probability of hitting with the Scout's lower BS.  It also still retains enough strength to potentially penetrate lightly armored vehicles, like speeders, rhinos, ork trucks, chimeras, etc. 

[Benjamin]

I would also trade out the missile launchers, in the scout squads, for heavy bolters.

I just ran some numbers with the scouts. Let's start with the obvious, then get to math.

Against AV 12, 13 and 14, the missile launcher stands alone in damage potential. You want to take a Predator, so you know higher AV will make itself known, and you must assume your opponent will give you the side armor you want.

Against AV 10, you're right that the Heavy Bolter does have a slight edge in causing a glance or a pen. (Equation is simply avg number of hits * % of damage results)
HB = 50%
ML = 42%
Volume of fire pays off here.

Against AV 11 however, the Missile Launcher takes the lead.
HB = 25%
ML = 33%
Also, those numbers don't give consideration to the fact MLs can pentrate, while the HB cannot.

It is safe to say that the Heavy Bolter carries a significantly higher damage potential against groups of Infantry. Where both wound on 2+ against the majority of Monstrous Creatures, I'd rather fire an AP3 krak missile rather than an AP - hellfire shell.

What it comes down to is what you anticipate on fighting.

Bigger squads of Scouts is certainly an interesting proposition. You may want to consider Telion at some point. Telion would work whether you go HB or ML in your squad and you wouldn't have to buy Camo Cloaks.

[canadianone]

Just a thought, how many troop choices are people planning on bringing, I personally cant justify taking more that the minimum, is any one going to be taking more than just 2?

[Benjamin]

It wouldn't surprise me up to see a couple lists up to the max of 6. Some armies have really, really cheap Troops options.

Space Marines could buy 3 squads of 10 Scouts and combat squad them for 6 scoring units, so you could see those variations as well.

[JWebs]

2 Tervigons as troops (with the required 2 squads of termagants) and a Prime comes to exactly 500. How many people can deal with 2 Monstrous Creatures that are T6 with 6 wounds scoring with the ability to spawn more scoring units?!

[Frosthydra]

It's an interesting idea, would you be able to have any psychic powers on them or other upgrades to help out the spawned Terms?

I can't really remember how much a Prime costs, but I feel like it would be really tight on points for any upgraded weapons / biomorphs / psychic abilities.

2 x Tervigon at 160 each        (320)
2 x Termagants (10) at 5 each (100)
1 x Tyranid Prime at ?? each

So the Prime would have to be 70-80, and then you'd be dry on points.

The only problems I'd really see with this list is that there's really just about nothing you could do to any enemy vehicles.  Tervigons wouldn't want to get close, as they could pop, Terms with Spikefists wouldn't be able to do much... and I'm not really certain on what a Prime could do to one.

It would definitely give people issues via sheer numbers, but I think it would have issues with Vehicles and MEQ units, but maybe that's just my perspective on it.

[KestrelM1]

Well, sadly, a schedule conflict is going to prevent me from making this tourney. For giggles, here's the list I was planning to use:

IG - 500 points about 500 points

Primaris Psyker (70)
Veteran Squad (10) w/ 3 Grenade Launchers - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (140)
Veteran Squad (10) w/ 2 Meltaguns, Plasma Gun - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (160)
Vendetta Gunship (130)

Primaris rides with the GL Vets to spit out 3+2d6 S6 shots at turn from 24". Melta/Plasma Vets and Vendetta are self-explanatory. Mephiston eat your heart out.