megabattle issues discussion thread

[General Leevous]

I was waiting to see this thread get brought up but it didn't so I figured id bring it up so we can continue to make each megabattle run smoother and smoother! Please try and reduce this to a constructive thread to solve any grievances about the megabattle and not a thread of complaints and arguments (though technically this IS a thread of complaints).

My only real issue is the persision strike asset. I noticed that it was working for the ENTIRE SIDE. I personally dislike this for both a fluff reason and a rules reason.

Ill give the fluff reason first. I don't know what the fluff description of the asset is (example being like rockem boyz being meteors thrown down to earth) and why it would make you hit on 2s but my issue being is if we can't share tech from being 2 armies who can't coordinate effectively, then what makes 60000 points of either side be able to coordinate enough to make it so one armys asset makes it easier for a defense laser (only used as an example due to range) to fire at it down the board and benefit from this asset. Idk that's just me though.

My other reason being rules wise, this was game breaking to pauls titan being blown up. This made it so 3 EVERYONE could focus fire on the 2500 point monstrosity and that's devestating. On a big table like that persision strike should be used to benefit the person using it. Idk how everyone else feels about this but that's why this discussion board is here now

[Vermillion]

My only real issue is the persision strike asset. I noticed that it was working for the ENTIRE SIDE. I personally dislike this for both a fluff reason and a rules reason.

While it is true that Precision Strike asset (from a datasheet) was used to target Paul's titan, and that that titan did in fact blow up, the Precision Strike actually didn't effect the majority of the weapons used to shoot at it. Precision strike makes you hit on 2+, which has no effect on weapons that roll scatterdice (being the one who orchestrated that strike, I was watching it). It made it so my own railguns hit on 2+ (which was kinda awesome) but beyond that the effect it had was minor. Templates are going to hit huge titans the majority of the time based on the huge amount of space that even their feet take up, that's why most of those template shots landed (not the precision strike).

However, logistically I do agree with you. Technically it could be construed as a form of sharing tech as the fluff is that there is an orbital ship (or nearby base or something) that is feeding targeting data to troops in the field. But the fundamental problem with this is that it's an asset, not an individual tech from an army. So the real question is, how do we want to treat assets from single players that can affect multiple players? Considering that this is a fairly minor example (and I can't imagine many people taking precision strike unless they got it from a data sheet) I think it would be better touched on as a general policy rather than precision strike specifically.

As for my own observation about the megabattle, as much fun as 12 tables was I really think it severely hurt the events ability to flow smoothly. There's always going to be 1 assault, 1 shooting phase, 1 special rule that slows down one part of the table and that makes everybody else spend more time waiting on it. I really feel that the event would flow smoother if there were seperate tables, even if they were linked somehow so players could travel between them (teleporter pads, flying transports, tunnels) so each table could go at it's own pace. Even if traveling between tables meant you arrived on different turns (leave a small table on turn 3 to arrive on a large one that's still on turn 2) I think it would greatly expand the ability of the event to hit later turns in a timely fashion. And it would involve less down time for the majority of players.

[Logan007]

Personally, I actually think Precision Strike is one of the weaker Stratagems a player can take -- lot's of things like blasts are of no benefit to it. Also, it only works for one shooting phase, and against one unit.

When you factor in things like range and line of sight, the number of units that can really benefit from it generally dwindles down to a pretty reasonable level.

Sure, it was pretty devastating against Paul's titan, but I think the majority of the structure points Paul was dealt actually came from Eric Volker's titans which shot 5" blast templates, and therefore did not benefit from precision strike.

One thing I'd like to see Un-Nerfed is Lords of Twilight: Since Searchlights work like normal, I really don't see why it should be limited to 3 tables.

Also, I remain a proponent of being able to share tech. It's really not that bad.

[Vermillion]

Also, I remain a proponent of being able to share tech. It's really not that bad.

I would love to start a dialogue about this to be honest. As I'm on the fence about it, and would really like to see arguments on both sides. I know sharing Tech sounds pretty scary for a lot of things, but I know at least for 1 Tau Markerlights can't be used by any unit that isn't specifically a Tau (meaning Kroot don't benefit from markerlights, Vespid only do if they have their strain leader).

Is sharing transports that big of a problem in itself?
Can anyone think of particularly bad problems with sharing tech? I'm really curious to know.

One thing I'd like to see Un-Nerfed is Lords of Twilight: Since Searchlights work like normal, I really don't see why it should be limited to 3 tables.

I think this would have been unwieldy with 12 tables, but if we're dealing with separate table areas then yes I agree. Same thing with anti-plant barrage.

[Logan007]

We actually did a 5v5 test game in which we all shared tech -- it really wasn't that bad. A lot of codices actually self limit it like tau markerlights only being usable by Tau, Eldar buffs only usable by other Eldar units, etc.

[Vermillion]

I guess the main thing we'd have to do is look at it codex by codex (on order and disorder) and look at what could be shared and think about it that way. If we intentionally try to break the system and can't, then it might be worth considering.

Things to consider:
Emperor Titan with green tide in each foot
Thousand Sons in open topped vehicles (Trukks or Dark Eldar transports)
Necrons protected by Towers of Tzeentch cover fields
Techmarines fixing Eldar fliers (with hover rule)
IG Tanks and infantry in Mantas
Eldar Aspect Warriors in StormRavens

These are just ideas I'm throwing out there to consider. I know I'm only scratching the surface and I've ignored Psykers completely (Give me a break, Tau have no psykers   )

Honestly I had trouble thinking up ones for Order. Most Space Marine chapters already share a decent amount of tech, and IG already has tech marines. Still would love to hear counter examples.

[Moosifer]

I think the biggest "issue" I have with it is that the precision strike was not from an player asset, but instead a data sheet asset.  I wish this was asked beforehand because that really should not have happened, warhound titans using a tau asset to bring down an opposing model.

I will say that I feel as though if it was a players sole "taken" asset there would be no issue.

[Vermillion]

Sure, it was pretty devastating against Paul's titan, but I think the majority of the structure points Paul was dealt actually came from Eric Volker's titans which shot 5" blast templates, and therefore did not benefit from precision strike.

[KestrelM1]

Mostly, you'd have issues with auras, imo, if they provided their benefits to everything and anything.

Kustom Force Fields providing Cover Saves.
Sanguinary Priests providing Feel No Pain.
Books of St. Lucius providing Stubborn.
Fateweaver providing Re-rolls.
GK Librarians providing The Shrouding/Might of Titan.

I know Cover Saves and FNP are not huge deals given the destructiveness of the average Apocalypse weapon, but I'm sure there's more stuff than what's listed above. One example off the top of my head that might be very, very annoying if allowed to apply to everyone: Tau's Stealth Field Generator (though I'm not sure if it only works on Tau).

I think the general idea is that sharing tech is not inherently bad, there's just the pervading fear that there may be some as-of-yet undiscovered fun-ruining combination that will somehow result in Guardsmen w/ 20 Strength 14 attacks and We'll Be Back. I do think it's something to avoid just to prevent people from getting too abusive with the rules. Having to argue about what can share tech with what will detract from the megabattle, imo, so it's better to err on the side of "no."

[Vermillion]

One example off the top of my head that might be very, very annoying if allowed to apply to everyone: Tau's Stealth Field Generator

What, you guys don't want warhound titans covered by Tau stealthfield generators?  That actually is an excellent counter-example. And while nothing taller than a reaver titan (if that) can benefit from it (each model has to be full within 12 inches of it, which is fine for broadsides and hammerheads but tricky for models that are actually taller than 12 inches), that is still a pretty annoying rule for non-tau models to have. I'm sure there are other similar examples. 

[Logan007]

I think the general idea is that sharing tech is not inherently bad, there's just the pervading fear that there may be some as-of-yet undiscovered fun-ruining combination that will somehow result in Guardsmen w/ 20 Strength 14 attacks and We'll Be Back. I do think it's something to avoid just to prevent people from getting too abusive with the rules. Having to argue about what can share tech with what will detract from the megabattle, imo, so it's better to err on the side of "no."

While that's certainly the pervading fear, I think the reality is that no combination is going to stand up very well to a couple Strength D blasts or a Vortex Missile or even to a few barrage weapons.

Allowing more unit combinations makes things more fun in my opinion.

[Logan007]

One example off the top of my head that might be very, very annoying if allowed to apply to everyone: Tau's Stealth Field Generator

What, you guys don't want warhound titans covered by Tau stealthfield generators?  That actually is an excellent counter-example. And while nothing taller than a reaver titan (if that) can benefit from it (each model has to be full within 12 inches of it, which is fine for broadsides and hammerheads but tricky for models that are actually taller than 12 inches), that is still a pretty annoying rule for non-tau models to have. I'm sure there are other similar examples. 

I don't think you'll be able to fit a warhound entirely within 12 inches of a Tau Stealth Field Generator....

[General Leevous]

I fully agree that percision strike isn't THAT bad of an asset, but when used against a titan, you can chew up void shields like they weren't even there then shoot D templates at the thing. Its VERY situational but I still don't feel it should work for the whole table.

[Vermillion]

While that's certainly the pervading fear, I think the reality is that no combination is going to stand up very well to a couple Strength D blasts or a Vortex Missile or even to a few barrage weapons.

It Is true that my two Stealthfish did succumb to O.B.s and a Mawloc respectively (even if I did get lucky to survive the first 4 or so O.B.s.

I don't think you'll be able to fit a warhound entirely within 12 inches of a Tau Stealth Field Generator....

That one you may be surprised by, honestly I wouldn't mind seeing if it's even possible. If it's not, then that might limit it's ability to be widely used outside of Tau. As it is I'm not sure even a baneblade would benefit as I think the far corners on the opposite side of it would be just outside of 12.

I fully agree that percision strike isn't THAT bad of an asset, but when used against a titan, you can chew up void shields like they weren't even there then shoot D templates at the thing. Its VERY situational but I still don't feel it should work for the whole table.

I chewed up void shields like they weren't there because I shot 10 railguns at it, 6 of them twin linked with rerolls for the armor pens thanks to a data sheet. The precision strike was just icing on the cake, and I was the only one who benefited from it (even though other people with single shots could have benefited from it).

[General Leevous]

I didn't know it was that many lol. I thought lascannons were fired too benefiting from percision strike