Author Topic: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines  (Read 1755 times)

Bromeo

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I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« on: April 26, 2011, 07:09:03 PM »
Sup guys. New to the forum, but not to Plainville, I usually head down there with a friend or two to play 40k and stuff, but not much else, A few people could recognize me probably, I dunno.

Intro out of the way, I really need help with my list/deployment/wargear/bananas, since every game that I've played against my Tau and Ork friends have resulted in defeats, which kind of sucks, considering they're the ones who are the ones most willing to play or are usually around the most. And when I lose, I lose hard. My early game isn't terrible, but then during mid and late game, I just fall apart.

I'll post the list I used recently against my Tau friend and I'll annotate it where I think I might of screwed up with my list

against Tau, 1250pt-
HQ:
Librarian w/ Combi-Melta (Threw him into a Razor back which was a bad move, didn't even utilize it.), Epistolary, Null Zone and Avenger 165

Elites:
Dread w/ 2x TL Autocannons 125 (I hear a lot about Rifleman Dreads, but they rarely do anything for me in the times I took them.)

Troops
3x Tactical Squads w/ 5 more SM, a Flamer (I think I should of took a Melta, this rarely got utilized during the game, even though he took KROOT  :-[), a Lascannon (I think I might stick with a M.L. or a Multi-Melta, considering there were a few tanks, but I don't think, in retrospect, enough to warrant these Lascannons.), and a Combi-Melta 185 per squad, 555 total

D. Trans.
2x Razorbacks with TL Assault Cannon 75 per Transport, 150 total(I agree with my friend here, I wasn't being as aggressive as I should of been with these guys, majority of the time, I wasn't even in range.)

Fast Attack
Land Speeder with a Multi Melta 65 (This was just to fill points, These could of been better spent IMO.)

Heavy Support
Dev Squad with 4 Missile Launchers 150 (I was actually kinda pleased with these guys' performance, that is until my friend made them fail their morale and run off the board, due to shitty placement.)

That's my list. I can also tell you the deployment type, mission, and others if you need it as well.

GossWeapon

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2011, 07:57:31 PM »
avenger and a combi melta is a waste on the librarian, leave him without epistolary and run null zone.

for the tac squads, switch to a real meltagun and combi-flamer, and a missle launcer as the heavy.
also mount all you units in razorbacks and combat squad the heavy weapon and place that in cover.

the dreadnought is ok. some people like them i find the stock dreadnought in a drop pod or an ironclad in a drop pod is more effective.
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Dissimulation

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2011, 08:13:15 PM »
I think your major problem with the dreadnought was its positioning. When you don't know where the enemy is deploying putting a unit that can only move 6" a turn in the corner is usually not the best idea :P.

This actually seemed true about your whole army. It seemed wide spread like you were trying to defend the entire table. This concept of me getting an advantage in this situation corresponds with some of the teachings in the art of war. I know where I am attacking, you don't. and when you try to defend too much your army becomes spread apart, whereas my army was very tightly packed. This made fighting your army fairly easy.

I'm not saying keep your army clumped in a ball the entire game, I'm just saying you should probably have a little more direction when your placing units on the field. If you really don't know where i'll be going or where the unit will be useful, take the safe option and deploy relatively close to the middle. In the game we just played I feel like if you tried to push down the side of the map where my tanks were, i would have had more trouble. That side of the map had 2 objectives so i wouldn't have been able to simply dance around your army, I would be forced to fight for at least one of them. 
Time for my tau jumpy phase

Benjamin

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2011, 08:53:18 PM »
If you're playing 40k in Plainville, I've likely seen you around, although no one has asked me to call them Bromeo.

I think what's happening here is a few early game mistakes aren't bearing poison fruit until much later in the game. You're also going against two fairly specialized armies (ork = assault, tau= shooting).

I think most of the units you've chosen are fine. Not optimized, but not awful. Goss sounds correct on most of that. Librarian with Null Zone is definitely the way to go. Dreadnought with TL Autocannons is great.

I concur with Dissimulation, that many battles are won or lost during deployment. When going first, you must anticipate your enemy's deployment and when going second, you must react to it. Fail here and it's a long way uphill. It takes practice, lots and lots of practice. Dev squads go in cover, and they're going to be shot at. That's the price they pay for being awesome.

Or if you're terrible at deployment, play Daemons.  ;D

I'd have to see you play to assess things like tactical priority. Are you attacking the enemy with the right units, and are you attacking the right units? Things like that.

Chase

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2011, 01:18:58 AM »
Bromeo, oh Bromeo, where for art thou Bromeo?


Bromeo = Kamahl
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Rurouni Benshin

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2011, 09:44:57 AM »
Hey Bromeo,

A couple of things I've noticed about your list first off is that the points don't seem to add up right.  Here's what I noticed:

1. Your Tactical Squads should come out to 190 points each (170 base, 10 points for Lascannon, 10 points for Combi-Weapon), for a total of 570.  Also, the TL Assault Cannon is a 35 point upgrade, which will make both Razorbacks 170 points. 

2. Your Land Speeder should be 60 points, if you're only switching out the Heavy Bolter for the MM.  Although I would recommend you add a HF to what you have already, if don't have the points (or the sprue) for it, that's not a huge issue.

To comment further on what Ben and Dissimulation said, games can be indeed won as a result of deployment.  As a Space Marine player, your models and units tend to be more expensive and point intensive than most other non-MEQ armies.  As such, you should try to keep them more concentrated to a well fortified area of the table if you can.  You can probably do this in any non-Dawn of War game, depending on terrain layout.  Dissimulation had the right idea in keeping his forces closer to together, and while I don't know what army he plays (My guess is Tau, but that's just a hunch... ;)), if he's playing a point intensive army against an MEQ list, he would probably have a strategic advantage with his playing style.

As for your unit load outs, having Flamers is fine, but you probably want at least 1 Meltagun in 1 squad.  Lascannons are good too, but like Dave is saying, you should Combat Squad the units (and from taking Razorbacks, I'm guessing that you probably are.  But if you're not, then the Lascannons aren't necessary).  I've personally never liked taking Combi-Weapons on my Tact Sgt's, but they seem to work for some people.  I prefer taking Power Weapons/Fists, but if you find Combi-Weapons working better for you, stick with them. 

Your Librarian doesn't need a Combi-Melta either.  Not that it is unnecessary, but you can probably make better use of 15 points.

Devastator Squads are a lot of fun to use, but are very overpriced.  If you run them again, I would recommend you max out the squad to the full 10 man unit.  You've obviously experienced what failing their morale check can result it, and with a bigger unit, you have better odds of surviving, and you won't need to allocate wounds to ML carrying models as soon.  Also, I don't know how you typically decide which mission to play, but if you play all 3 types, you should consider getting them a Rhino.  Otherwise every DOW game you play, these guys will be even less effective and only that much more of a point sink.

Dreadnought is fine the way he is.  Put him somewhere where he can have cover and sight of the majority of the board if you can, otherwise just keep him in cover until something comes within sight that isn't far from one turns Movement phase.

I know it might be difficult to take all of this in without seeing it on the tabletop first hand, but I'm sure you'll get the hang of it.  And it seems like you have a few people who are willing to help you out.  Good luck!
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Moosifer

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2011, 01:57:02 PM »
HQ:

Basic Libby with 2 powers of your choice.  You dont need to upgrade him with combi weapons or bigger armor.  In 1250 games you want to maximize your points

Elite:

Rifleman dread is fine for what you are looking at it for.  However when you are talking about going up against tau and their vehicles you might want to look at a TL Auto Cannon and TW Las Cannon

Troops:

If you are sticking to basic, buy 2 basic 10 man squads with flamers and missile launchers and razorbacks with either las/plas or TL Assault Cannons.  3rd Squad give a melta gun and las cannon and razorback with same load out as others.  Combat squad so sgt and special weapon in razorback while heavy weapon portion is IN cover.

Other stuff you figured out on your own.

Remember most of the stuff you are looking at with this game is learned thru game after game.  Knowing how to utilize your army to counter what the enemy has is always something that needs to be learned over time and is pretty hard to get 5-10 games into your 40k career

Bromeo

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2011, 11:12:54 PM »
avenger and a combi melta is a waste on the librarian, leave him without epistolary and run null zone.

Epistolary is something I kinda can get behind, considering it's 50pts. But getting rid of Avenger? That's one of the powers I have the best results with, especially considering against Sv3+ and crappier, which is a vast majority of things in 40k, and taking Null Zone in conjunction really makes it pretty hard to save yourself against.

That being said, I will try it, and give him different powers. Also, I'm agreeing on the Combi-Melta thing, that was a definite point sink.

*Insert large post that will make this post even larger*

I pretty much agree with everything you said there. Taking the Razorbacks and not trying to cram them down your throat is a bad idea from what I'm realizing. Same thing with deployment.

If you're playing 40k in Plainville, I've likely seen you around, although no one has asked me to call them Bromeo.

Yeah, I'm down there at least once a week. I've probably seen you as well. Anyways, onto the actual post;

Quote
1. I think what's happening here is a few early game mistakes aren't bearing poison fruit until much later in the game. You're also going against two fairly specialized armies (ork = assault, tau= shooting).

2. I think most of the units you've chosen are fine. Not optimized, but not awful. Goss sounds correct on most of that. Librarian with Null Zone is definitely the way to go. Dreadnought with TL Autocannons is great.

3. I concur with Dissimulation, that many battles are won or lost during deployment. When going first, you must anticipate your enemy's deployment and when going second, you must react to it. Fail here and it's a long way uphill. It takes practice, lots and lots of practice. Dev squads go in cover, and they're going to be shot at. That's the price they pay for being awesome.

Or if you're terrible at deployment, play Daemons.  ;D

4. I'd have to see you play to assess things like tactical priority. Are you attacking the enemy with the right units, and are you attacking the right units? Things like that.

(I've bulleted it for ease of reply)

1. Yeah, and I don't specialize for some reason my list in friendly games, which is really starting to bite me in the ass now a days. Dissim has queried me on that many a time, and I'm agreeing with it more and more nowadays, mainly because I'm not as stupid as I used to be.

2. Optimized for points or for army, I need some more clarification there. And while I know the advantages of a Rifleman Dread, it never seems to produce results for me. Yet again, it might just be with deployment...

3. Hah, Dissim's brother plays Daemons. I don't wanna though, I'd rather do Orks for my next army. Anyways, I pretty much agree with all of that statement. Not much to comment on there, but I will DEFINITELY use the advice in my next battle.

4. I am, or at least I think I am doing it properly.

Bromeo, oh Bromeo, where for art thou Bromeo?


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Wow there's a ton of stuff in there. And all of it makes sense too, but I don't get the Rhino and the Dev Squad bit. I know the other Bolterdudes would be in there for wound allocation and the like, but why a Rhino? It seems like hurtling them down the Battlefield is a bad idea...

And for Moose, I'm also agreeing with all the things you say here, but I already got the Combat Squad into cover thing down good. Playing more games would also be good for my game too, you're right.

Loranus

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2011, 04:13:33 AM »
Concerning the Librarian it depends on the situation your going up against with the powers. Null Zone is great when facing armies like Chaos Daemons or stuff with a Lot of Invuln saves. Avenger is a Great one if you get close enough to hit a large group of enemies. Smite might be a better choice in some situations though. If your considering your Landspeeder to just be a point sink and not holding its value try dropping the extra 65 points into making your librarian Tigurius. Same stats as a regular librarian 3 psychic powers a turn and his force weapon is master crafted and you have access to all the Psychic Powers. Others Might disagree with this and they may have some good reasons to listen too but I think it might be worth a shot to try him out to see if the flexibility can help you out considering he will have something for every situation.
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Ed

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #9 on: April 28, 2011, 05:39:15 AM »
how are you playing your games are you in CC or Shoting

porxy or buy more dev guys try 2 squads of 4 rockets GREAT for fighting tau and orks

Landspeed should have a Heavy flamers

Those dreads are great i dunno man ( you could proxy a ironclad and try that)

razorbacks are fine las/plas is good i own 4 of them they nvr let me down

i dunno tig is a huge point drop and hes playing tau and orks rail guns and pk auto kills
since tig does have EW i dont see how he could live that long. If you are going to take a name char i would take one with EW

if i was going to run a libbie i'd use a termie with ss and whatever powers probbly null and shotie power or avenger.(with termies)

or just a naked libbie with null, the shield thing or avenger i dunno i dont own the codex

remember most hqs dont change games so dont over think them the core of the army is where it counts (that might be the guard in me cause i dont need no stinken hq)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 05:42:46 AM by Intro Pack Ed »

Rurouni Benshin

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #10 on: April 28, 2011, 09:25:34 AM »
Wow there's a ton of stuff in there. And all of it makes sense too, but I don't get the Rhino and the Dev Squad bit. I know the other Bolterdudes would be in there for wound allocation and the like, but why a Rhino? It seems like hurtling them down the Battlefield is a bad idea...
Sorry, I guess I should've included a TL/DR version.  :P

Anyways, what I mean by the Rhino is just in case you need to move them around somewhere.  In 2/3 of the 3 possible games, you have the chance to set them up on the board, which is ideal.  But even in those games, you might not have the best choice of cover within your deployment zone, and thus the Rhino would help get the Devastators where they can be better bunkered quicker and more efficiently.  In the last 1/3 of the games (Dawn of War, to be exact), your Devastators start off the board, until the start of your first turn (or later if you keep them in Reserve).  Foot slogging them from your table edge could be very problematic, especially if there isn't any cover within a single turn's walking distance.  Having a Rhino in this case is even more essential, since it'll get you to cover quicker and at least provide them some protection while being inside the vehicle.  It may seem like you're overly planning for these situations at first, but it'll definitely work out better for you in the end.  Give it a try, and see how it works for you.

One other thing about the Librarian.  I don't think Dave is suggesting you lose Avenger all together.  Librarians get 2 powers all the time for free.  I think he's just commenting on how you don't need a Combi-Weapon when you already have Avenger.  Avenger is the best all-round shooting power for Librarians.  Along with Null Zone and an Epistolary, it makes killing most MEQ units pretty easy.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2011, 09:28:09 AM by Rurouni Benshin »
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XceR

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #11 on: May 02, 2011, 05:08:59 PM »
Take a look at Army Builder. Obviously it's not specific to SM, but as a Newbie I found it to be one of the biggest aids in exploring different army options and putting together an army.

Benjamin

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Re: I seriously need help with Vanilla Marines
« Reply #12 on: May 02, 2011, 05:21:50 PM »
Take a look at Army Builder. Obviously it's not specific to SM, but as a Newbie I found it to be one of the biggest aids in exploring different army options and putting together an army.
I would add the caveat to always double-check your Army Builder lists against the codex, as it's not perfect. However, even with a double-check, it saves lots of time. Very good tool.