Grey Knights more like.... Well you get the idea. A Chaos Daemons discussion

[the_trooper]

With the new shiney bandwagon has brought with itself a horde of new players of Grey Knights.  Since they are no longer Daemonhunters, I figured they no longer hunt daemons and prefer just being painted in a simple paint scheme.

Bad jokes aside, I have been considering dusting off my Chaos Daemons army which is mostly just left overs from my Chaos Space Marines. I wanted to build a list designed to fight Grey Knights.  In doing so, I reckon I could beat up on other MEQ armies and be ok against things like Guard and such.

The list itself 1850:
HQ:
Bloodthirster
-Blessing of the blood god

The Blue Scribes

Skulltaker on Juggernaught

Elites:
4 Bloodcrushers

3 Bloodcrushers (Skulltaker hangs out here)

4 Flamers

Troops:
2 x 8 Bloodletters

2 x 9 Pink horrors with Bolt

Fast Attack:
3 x 4 Screamers of Tzeentch

Heavy Support:
Soulgrinder with Phlem (Str 8, AP 3 Large blast)

Daemon prince with blessing, ironhide, Mark of Khorne, Wings

Seeing as Blessing of the Blood God grants "The Daemon has a 2+ invulnerable save against wounds caused by psychic powers or force weapons", the bloodthirster will be a house against GKs in CC, same with Skulltaker.  I mean, a 2+ invulnerable in CC is awesome.

Thoughts on the list?

[Logan007]

Isn't Blessing of the Blood God a gift? in that case they can take that away from you with a psychic power (I think it's called dark excommunication). Still, not everyone has that psychic power.


Also, you may want to take bloodletters in squad sizes of 16 -- they need to be able to survive an initial round of shooting as well as being struck at first if you're assaulting a squad of grey knights armed with halberds (which are initiative 6 in CC).

I'm still going through the Grey Knights codex myself so I'm sure there's stuff I'm missing.

Mike

[the_trooper]

Good point about dark excommunication but on the upside, invulnerable saves are still there and some of the scariest stuff the list will bring aren't gifts but special rules.   But Hellblades are gifts from Khorne.  Duly noted.

I was considering larger sizes for them but being able to have more bodies on the field might be a boon.  The original list had 16 so I may go back to it.

I figure all the bolt of tzeentch spam, screamers and monstrous creatures should be adequate anti tank, do you agree?

[Ed]

Pink horrors suck ass for bolt they never hit

[the_trooper]

You sound bitter.

[Bill]

I like the list, Blessing of the blood god is still good especially against force weapons since I am not sure they even need to activate them to get the save. Plus only librarians and dread knights have excommunication I think. My only suggestions would be to either run skulltaker on chariot or in a unit of 5 bloodletters. You are going to want to use Skulltaker against the dread knight and don't want excommunication on the crushers. Skulltaker can take him alone anyway.

[Benjamin]

So, the plan is to assault Grey Knights? Don't, don't do it.

I hate to suggest it, but mono-Tzeentch bolt spam gives one the best chance against an all-comer GK list. (I'm with Ed, I can never roll to hit with only BS 3.) That said, an anti-Daemon GK list will wreck an anti-GK Daemon list. Dark Excommunication alone is the stuff of horror. The only attempt at balance is that its a psychic test with only LD 9.

Grey Knights cost more than other MEQs because they have strong assault deterrents. Their grenades alone screw with assault something fierce, never mind the force (power) weapons.

However, Grey Knights still die like other MEQs.

I'll think this over, see if I can come up with something...

[Benjamin]

If you run Bloodthirsters or 4 Heralds of Khorne with Blessing of the Blood God, 3 DPs with Blessing and Flesh Hounds (who come with Blessing), they are all suddenly much more resilient against GKs, at least in assault. This, of course, presumes no Dark Excommunication or other GK shenanigans. Something to consider.

[Ian Mulligan]

I wouldn't worry about GK in assault. Their shooting is whats amazing.

[Bill]

Agreed

[Benjamin]

Every Daemon army needs to survive at least one round of shooting, that's always an issue. Is there a GK list that raises the bar above other current shooting lists? I've seen some impressive lists, but nothing that really raises the bar above other competitive shooting lists and little if anything that changes a Daemon player's overall strategy.

What GKs do in assault must be pointed out, as most Daemon armies rely heavily (if not entirely) on assault. In the_trooper's original list, only 5 out of 14 units have a shooting attack.

I still think bolt-spam is a Daemon player's best bet.

[Bill]

Shooting GK are disgusting at mid-short range which most daemons deep strike into. A strictly shooting GK army as Mr. Hobin has pointed out to me can lay down 120+ shots per round only counting S5+ shots. Leafblower guard at max strength I believe is around 56.

The only thing daemons should have trouble beating in close combat in the GK army is grenade bearing death cults and dread knights (dark excommunication). Purifiers are great but not as much so against MSU daemons. Strike squads are the biggest enemy for daemons because it puts them at range to get two rounds of full strength shooting instead of one but the strike squads aren't optimal against others.

Anyway, I am kinda derailing. The list will change depending on what type of GK army it is really. If it shooty; go slaanesh heavy to deep strike in the back field out of their heavy fire range than use speed to get in the next turn. If it HTH based than play Khorne heavy IMO. I have only played 3 games against new GK so I am still learning.  

[Ian Mulligan]

Every Daemon army needs to survive at least one round of shooting, that's always an issue. Is there a GK list that raises the bar above other current shooting lists? I've seen some impressive lists, but nothing that really raises the bar above other competitive shooting lists and little if anything that changes a Daemon player's overall strategy.

I'm not going to make a list for you right now,  but I will point out their strengths.

1. Mass stormbolters.
2. Pyscannons are absurd.
3. 2x TWL Autocannon Dreads with psybolts are completely insane.
4. LOL psybolts on razorbacks

All of this fires atleast 24" on the move. You have an amazingly mobile, high accuracy firebase.

[Benjamin]

Ben, if you fail to see the potential of the codex I don't think there's anything I could say to change your mind.

Okay.

For everyone else actually interested in this discussion, Bill has two excellent points: 1) GKs can excel at mid-to-short range shooting and 2) Daemon-success depends on the GK list.

1) Psycannon spam is likely going to show up. I'm curious if Soul Grinders can play a role in countering this. I have to do some mathhammer to figure out whether 2+/3+ to wound with a combination of armor and/or invulnerable saves are better or worse than 6s to rend/pen Soul Grinder front armor 13.

For what it's worth, Soul Grinders can also outrange Psycannons, which means they don't have to deep strike into the firezone (nor do the rest of the Daemons). They're big, so they could help provide cover for the more vulnerable Daemon units. I think there's some potential using them as a beachhead. (I know it sounds like I've contradicted my own strategies, but I'm just spit-balling in vacuum.)

Daemons will need to find a way to force GKs to move, to create room in the backfield while reducing their firepower.

2) If we take Bill's advice and apply it to an all-comer anti-GK list, one will need splashes of Khorne and Slaanesh.

Nurgle can have a role too in the troops slot. Plaguebearers are the most resilient Troops and can help provide cover to faster units like Fiends and Seekers. I've also been mulling over ICs hiding in squads of Nurglings. 9 Nurglings, 27 wounds, 117 points. Stick them in cover for a 3+ cover save, or have them go to ground for a 2+ save. They should help soak up most of the GK firepower.

[Ian Mulligan]

1. I spoke with Rich tonight about Soulgrinders. We were both a little skeptical because of the strength 8 TWL autocannons you should expect from several dreadnoughts. Daemon Princes seem like they may be a better option. Tzeentch ones, specifically.

2. MSUs of Fiends and loads of Tzeentch Heralds on chariots seem like the best units to counter GK with. Both will be hard to drop and can take out mass Razorbacks fairly well.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the plaguebearers. Their durability is essential if you plan on winning short of tabling (which is unlikely).