Author Topic: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG  (Read 12784 times)

Serring

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #60 on: July 06, 2010, 03:00:48 AM »
To prove a piont you usally have to prove it multiple times. Kinda like scientists when doing an experiment; you do as many tests as possible to prove the data consistent.

Also, Ben already pionted this out, but the list you posted is 2505pts. Infatry Squad w/ autocannon, flamer and chimera is 120pts not 115pts

Ragnar

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #61 on: July 06, 2010, 10:48:58 AM »
on the multiple times point, on vassal (yeah i know) it has been tested out by us (mainly by nate with me watching a few times) I'd say about 15 times. It hasn't come close to losing there; in fact, it has tabled pretty much every game. It was based upon that info (which, to be fair, i never submitted to you guys in the first place, but I wasn't terribly sure if you guys even know what vassal was, never mind if you would accept it as credible for some reason) and by projected capability that the conclusion of unbeatable came about. Since it is far more difficult for us to travel, in my case, 45 minutes, and in nate's case, 75-90 minutes, to battelgrounds to test the list, I figured that we could at least try one game to build its credibility with you guys. That being said was why I asked all of you to collaborate upon building a list, rather than a single guy or a couple of guys making a list, since it would have the most input and, considering our respective driving distances, would be the most reasonable way of testing the list against the BG community.

On the points front, I'll repost the list after I've made the changes to it before the game beings; don't worry.

Rob S

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #62 on: July 06, 2010, 12:54:35 PM »
I'm just curious as to why you're doing this.

Are you trying to make a point that the IG codex is the most overpowered?  All codexes (codecii?  Whatever.) can be overpowered.  My guess is with the games you played people weren't using a list that was uber-powerful or min/maxed, just a list they thought was fun.  I think the game would have been much closer if they had matched you in terms of nitpicking to the point of cheese.  The point of this game is that you don't just try to make the most powerful list, you make a list that is fun for you to use and your opponent to fight.  That's why Paul's miserable dice rolling doesn't stop him from playing games.  You're pushing little toys around a table, this isn't the type of thing you do to crush people.

Are you just trying to win as much as you can?  This isn't the type of community that does that.  Again, that's why no matter what happens in games we come out happy.  Because we don't play to win, we play because it's cool to see toy soldiers in war.

This is why Rich (who, I may point out, is a respected member here and not some hot-headed child [that's Lee  ;D]) called you out for being a troll.  Because it's entirely possible you were trying to get a rise out of putting a list like this on the forums of what you know is not a WAAC community.  This isn't the game we play, and if you knew that I'm sure you would have talked about it in your posts.
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Ragnar

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #63 on: July 06, 2010, 01:18:25 PM »
It saddens me that it seems you share no desire for winning. Yes, I enjoy the cinematic values offered by 40k and the hobbies along with it. But would you agree that the *objective* of the game is to win, as it is with all games? Why are we disappointed when we lose? Why do we so relish a close game turned in our favor? The purpose of games is to win, while the experience or road to victory is also a great part of the fun. In losing, you gain insight as to why you lost and will seek to adapt your strategy. why? to do better. what will doing better yield? winning more. it's that simple. the notion that winning isn't fun, then why are there tournaments for games?

why is there even a winner or loser? why are there even criteria for winning? games can be made with rules which end after a certain number of turns or a certain amount of time, so why do we need to even have 'objectives of the game'? it is innate human desire to win, to be victorious over an opponent. otherwise there would be no 40k tournaments, no NFL superbowls, no poker nationals, no world cup (i wouldn't mind that, actually), no global domination in Risk, no MTG world tour tournaments. Everything would be bland and PC. We don't judge here, we just play for the sake of consuming our time with no thought as to the outcome. That, my friend, is a drab world. But, I won't mind being placed across the table from an opponent to whom winning is nothing more than a word. It is just that much easier to win.

May I make a request? As much as I enjoy writing these thesis statements every two or three posts, could we try and keep this thread to the point of an uneatable list? I understand that some side points can be made off of it, but this is just getting tiring. I'd be more than happy to play a game because, to me, that is more fun than all of this banter.

To be honest, I was not aware that the BG community was so vehemently against WAAC. Knowing that, I would have been less enthusiastic in my approach. That's too bad though, in my opinion, because lack of competition breeds stagnancy. This is why it is so good to have tournaments held at gaming stores. So yes, you are right, if I had known, I would have discussed it in my posts. Touch of sarcasm mixed with the sincerity of still wanting to participate in your tournaments: forgive me for trying to win.

Ian Mulligan

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #64 on: July 06, 2010, 01:30:51 PM »
Beating your average 40k player is easy since this game doesn't really draw people who are looking for a serious challenge on the table top. If you're looking for game that supports two players bringing their A game in a serious test of skills, you invested in the wrong game.

Competitive 40k is laughable based upon how flawed the rules are and the lack of any real equal footing between armies. Playing this game seriously to win is akin to hosting a Candyland tournament.
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Ragnar

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #65 on: July 06, 2010, 01:33:02 PM »
"and this helps conversation in a positive way how? i'm done, seeing as this will only lead to insults and subsequent injury. i'm going to converse only with people who have the desire to play 40k rather than insult others."

@ Ian:
I've heard your point before and I appreciate it. I personally disagree, but it's personal opinion really, so to each his own.

Ian Mulligan

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #66 on: July 06, 2010, 01:41:08 PM »
I find the people who disagree with that point typically play 40k competitively because they fail at the other games.
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the_trooper

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #67 on: July 06, 2010, 01:52:46 PM »
Ragnar, do you also play D&D competitively?  Rping is a sign of weakness, I always say.

Battleground

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #68 on: July 06, 2010, 01:55:58 PM »
Wouldn't you agree, Matt, that the fluff of 40K often contradicts what a player can do on the table?

Can you pose similar examples with the other games you mentioned? Poker, Superbowls? Risk? Magic?

When was the last time you heard someone watching the Superbowl say, "Oh, in the fluff of football the Patriots would never do X."

Warhammer 40K has this to contend with and is the source for very different approaches on how the game can/should be played. That said, the majority of people at BG do play with "winning" in mind. I certainly think it's rare that someone would build a list with the INTENT of losing. However, it is VERY common at BG for people to build a list in a way that doesn't violate the spirit of the 40K universe. This is why 40K tournament players often create a degree of discord amongst a community that values the "story" above "win."

Because of this, the game philosophy supported and inspired by the infamous "Sirlin," fails to ring true with games like Warhammer, Dungeons & Dragons and that sort.

[ Sirlin article link: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html ]

Add to all of this, claims of "unbeatable" fail to make sense in a game that requires you to roll lots of dice. Strictly speaking, you will not win if you roll like a donkey. Is that not true?

« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 02:00:15 PM by Battleground »
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Rob S

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #69 on: July 06, 2010, 02:03:14 PM »


[ Sirlin article link: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html ]


I wish you never linked that.

Though now I can see the Magic player's mantra.  ;D
It's the throwing phase now.

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Battleground

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2010, 02:07:13 PM »


[ Sirlin article link: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html ]


I wish you never linked that.

Though now I can see the Magic player's mantra.  ;D

LOL. I had to.

It perfectly illustrates the disparity this line of thinking creates when mingled with a game with a story and a set of badly written rules.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 02:12:11 PM by Battleground »
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Chase

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2010, 04:02:57 PM »
Beating your average 40k player is easy since this game doesn't really draw people who are looking for a serious challenge on the table top. If you're looking for game that supports two players bringing their A game in a serious test of skills, you invested in the wrong game.

Competitive 40k is laughable based upon how flawed the rules are and the lack of any real equal footing between armies.

Based on my experience (one venues worth of 40k players over years) this is exactly right.

I can't think of a single player that has come in who simply and strictly wants to win above all else, all of the time.  There are certainly degrees to which people are competitive which vary day-to-day, opponent-to-opponent, or event-to-event but even the most competitive of the bunch screw around more than not.

All of the tournaments we've run over the past year or two have been absent a large percentage of our "regular" or "core" group of 40k players.  Using the last Doubles event as an example, I can think of at least 10 people off the top that didn't play because they dislike any sort of "competitive" 40k.  Some of them are probably best suited for it too.

To the point about a casual crowd creating a stagnant community:  I can promise you the opposite is true.  I've seen it time after time, game after game, year after year, where a player or group of players come around with the intent to win, win, win.  The result is always the same.  The better players continually have success, the limited players (skills, models, funds, time, etc) lose more often than not, the lists, decks, pieces, cards, builds, etc remain largely the same, the players all begin to lose interest because much of what goes on is predictable and un-fun, and the game entirely (or almost entirely) evaporates over a very short period of time.

The games that tend to stick around longest and have the most success (specifically at Battleground) are the games built up around a casual, "fun for all" mind set.  Players sticking to fluff or "cool ideas" will probably never run out of army composition options in 40k.  If they try to compete, they are limited to what?  2, 3, or 4 different lists out of 2, 3, or 4 different codices?  Half of our players have 3ish armies each of which weighs in at 2-3000+ points, there's a TON of options there and it keeps them and their opponents / friends coming back to play.  This is good.

Every once in a while it's fun to run a tournament and sort of raise the stakes a bit, but as I'm sure you know, Matt, even then the majority of people that do play just throw some stuff out there that they think might be fun to use.


Maybe this last gem paints the best picture....

This years 'Ard Boyz event saw something like 4 or 5 of the 40+ regular or semi-regular 40k players sign up to play.  Of the 4 or 5 I think only 2 signed up because they really wanted to compete (both advanced).  The others signed up because they just wanted to play in an event.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2010, 04:18:32 PM by Chase »
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Chase

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2010, 04:07:55 PM »
Though now I can see the Magic player's mantra.  ;D

I think this is a common misconception too.  The vast majority of Magic players we have don't subscribe to Sirlin's mantra.  In fact, I don't think many of them do even at the bigger events.

It blows my mind, to be honest.


It's so rare that a player will play what he/she feels is the best deck.  There are plenty of reasons for this of course, but the fact remains.
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Ragnar

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2010, 04:38:25 PM »
I would sincerely like to thank you guys who have made relevant and respectful points. Chase, among others, have brought up great points that I respect. In the light of what you have said, I'll refrain from trying to get competitiveness out of these forums and rather continue posting on places we have commonalities in the hobby lest random hostilities among the less...rational...members of these forums spiral into pointless name-calling. I was happy to discuss with the more intelligent members of BG on the ideas and ideals of playing to win vs. not W-ing AAC and I respect what you have to say and appreciate the effort you are putting in to preserving the community by doing so. Either way, I look forward to gaming and discussing painting and background material with that crowd who seek to explain their positions and progress fruitful conversation, rather than those who set out to throw child tantrums using only mildly more sophisticated language.

So, cheers to Chase and the gang for the valuable discussion and to grimwulf for being there to set up a game, even one of a competitive nature.

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Re: Unbeatable Army List: Codex IG
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2010, 11:18:28 PM »
Derrek hit the nose with a lightsabre. The store runs like that, we dont value "competitve lists or powerful lists" If you do great to each their own I always say. But you probably wont find many players willing to play against such lists. You may find players who want to play, play that list and never want to play you again afterwards for playing like that. Its just the way the people at BG play this game.