Battleground Summer 40k League Rules (Starts June 24th, 2010)

[Ed]

fyi to people that i have to battle
i cannot play thursday nights if you wish to play me i am free any day but that and tuesdays after 3 pm.

[cryptoron]

Hey Mooney, When are you free for that fight.

[Chase]

He is free Monday 12-4, Tuesday all day and night, or Thursday before the league night.

I just asked him.

[cryptoron]

If anyone sees him before me, I'm fighting Riley Tuesday around 6:30.  I can be there at 5 (unless work keeps me late) so, either before or after is good for me.

[deathwatch101]

thats cool ron i be there tuesday

[the_trooper]

The Death Guard have broken the backs of the Sons of Horus!

Rich takes the Administrative Quarter from Tim.

[Achillius]

        I was talking with Riley and Ron last night about the battle for the palace, a few questions came up.

According to the mission update on the boards, the only "Scenario special rules" allowed are  Reserves

So the thought is  that Deep strike, by virtue of being removed from the special rules list is not. (though units with deep strike are allowed to if held in reserve) debatable.

It was also said that outflank would not be allowed. This would appear to be incorrect. If held in reserve a unit that can outflank, can outflank there are no special rules this is simply a subset of the reserve rule.

The mission is tough enough for the attacker, it seems that these interpretations just push it completely over the edge.

Thoughts?


     

[Lykosan]

The attacker must set his entire army up within 6in of his long table edge is one of the steps in the Setup Process. So the only things that may be held in Reserve for the Attacker are things that are by their own Codex Rules allowed to go into Reserve even when not allowed to by the Mission Rules (Space Marine Drop Prods and Terminators for example). In order to Outflank you need to go into reserve, if not allowed to go into reserve you can't Outflank, so no Outflank allowed by the mission. All normal rules are allowed in all standard missions, Grand assault isn't a standard mission. It's not even a standard CityFight mission so that means only rules that are allowed are per the mission or Codex overwrites. Seize the Initiative isn't allowed either since it says in 'Standard Games you may attempt to Seize the Initiative by rolling a 6', since it is not a Standard game the mission would need to state you may Seize the Initiative to be able to try this.

The fact that if you lose the Palace you also lose D3 pins in addtion to the Palace the difficulty of the fight is understandable.

[Achillius]

The attacker must set his entire army up within 6in of his long table edge is one of the steps in the Setup Process. So the only things that may be held in Reserve for the Attacker are things that are by their own Codex Rules allowed to go into Reserve even when not allowed to by the Mission Rules (Space Marine Drop Prods and Terminators for example). In order to Outflank you need to go into reserve, if not allowed to go into reserve you can't Outflank, so no Outflank allowed by the mission. All normal rules are allowed in all standard missions, Grand assault isn't a standard mission. It's not even a standard CityFight mission so that means only rules that are allowed are per the mission or Codex overwrites. Seize the Initiative isn't allowed either since it says in 'Standard Games you may attempt to Seize the Initiative by rolling a 6', since it is not a Standard game the mission would need to state you may Seize the Initiative to be able to try this.

The fact that if you lose the Palace you also lose D3 pins in addtion to the Palace the difficulty of the fight is understandable.

Sorry  I had this backwards reserves is the one NOT being allowed, (serves me right for thinking about this before my first tea).
But deepstrike is. If I'm reading this right anything allowed to Deepstrike can go into reserve, but must enter in as deepstriking.

Right?

[Lykosan]

No Deepstrike is not allowed either. The only person that is allowed by Mission to have anything deploy other than set it up at the beginning of the game in their deployment zone is the Defender. Only the Defender gets Reserves. If the Attacker wants anything to Deploy by any other means it must say that it is able to do so even when the mission does not allow it to in their respective Codex. As far as I know that is only a few things from the Space Marines list, the entire Codex Demons, some of the Necrons being able to warp out of a monolith, Eldar(not certain if they have a webway portal or not) and Dark Eldar popping out of a Webway Portal can be held in reserve since their rules specifically say they may allways be put into reserve even if the mission doesn't allow it.

So long winded answer to Deepstrike question is: No Deepstriking allowed for Attacker.

[Chase]

I haven't read the scenario in a long time, but when I posted the stuff I had intended for reserves to be the ONLY scenario specific special rule that WOULD function normally.

The reason I choose to get rid of all the other special rules is so that we could avoid playing a real "Cities of Death" scenario.

Whereas I remember liking the Grand Assault scenario a lot, and do remember it favoring the defender, I did not intend for it to be unwinable.

I don't remember seeing Deep Strike or Outflank on the list of scenario specific special rules.  In the Grand Assault Scenario theres a small box with a few special rules listed (if I remember correctly).  I remember the only non-wacky one to be reserves.  If this is not correct, I'm sure I had a reason for getting rid of the others at the time... but don't currently remember what it was.


These things always seem to come up on my day off .  I'll take a look at the books when I get to the store.


edit:  Riley's posts may have cleared this up.  I'll double check and post to confirm on Saturday afternoon.

[Achillius]

I haven't read the scenario in a long time, but when I posted the stuff I had intended for reserves to be the ONLY scenario specific special rule that WOULD function normally.

.....
edit:  Riley's posts may have cleared this up.  I'll double check and post to confirm on Saturday afternoon.

Well that depends.
              Rileys's posts clear up the interpretation of no reserves.

However if you intended reserves to be available then the interpretation is wrong

outflank concerns go away if reserves are allowed, they are a subset.

Deep strike go way also unless explicitly denied.

Cheers,
Alan

[Chase]

I guess the problem lies with the line, "The attacker must set his entire army up within 6in of his long table edge."  The setup asks for that, I guess.

If this is the case and reserves are allowed, what typically happens?  Does "entire army" mean every model on your list or does it mean whatever you decide to put on the table to begin with?

I'm thinking Riley may be saying what he's saying because if the scenario forces the attacker to deploy everything it would eliminate the ability to deep strike or outflank.  It's not so much that they're forbidden, it's that it's simply not possible to do so.  Who knows?

My knowledge of 40k is failing me yet again.


I'm just not sure how this typically works.  I'd imagine that it would require all attacking models to be deployed unless a codex rule says otherwise (like Riley's examples).  Reserves being allowed can and should be applied to anything that is able to get around having to be "set up" at the start of the game (like stuff in Riley's examples) like, for instance, the defenders forces.

Again, I really don't know.  I'll have to read the scenario again when I have access to the books.

Sorry guys.

[Achillius]

Here's the set up from Grand assault.
1) Defender places all his defenses and hidden unit markers (Special COD rules). Hey may deploy anywhere more than 18" away from the attackers table edge. He may keep units capable of using deep strike in reserve and deploy using deep strike. Space marines cannot use drop pods.


2) <Ignore COD special equip> and then deploys his forces within  6" of his table edge. ANy troops may be kept in reserve and must roll for arrival on subsequent turns. Any troops capable of deep strike may deploy from reserve using this method. Space marine attackers may use drop pods.


3) defender uncovers hidden unit markers, and deploys his army before beginning the turn. PRelim bombardment is resolved and the defender begins his first turn.


So ... Hidden set up is not there.
         So the defender is not committed to a deployment prior to seeing the attackers deployment. We can live with this I think. Defender gets to react to attackers deployment and gets first turn.


Prelim bombard not an issue, just doesn't happen.


But reserves, they are key. If you cannot have units in reserve then the attacker has to squeeze an army into 6" , cannot deep-strike or outflank.

I'd propose one of two options here, and I do apologize for not reviewing this before Riley and Rons game last week, or I'd have brought it up then.

1. Allow the attacker first turn.

2. Allow reserves.


I think option 2 balances the game more while option 1 at least takes away the feel of a firing squad set up. No offense to Ron, but y'all better be glad a mech guard army did not get in there first. That would suck!

Cheers,
Alan



 

[Chase]

Holding stuff in reserve was always my intent.

If thats all the scenario says, I'm not sure where the confusion came from.


People seem to think I was unclear when I modified the Palace "rules".  With respect to reserves I thought it was pretty clear.  I said, "Players will not make use of the Scenario Special Rules except for reserves."

Maybe I should have said, "The only Scenario Special Rule to be used is reserves."