Quick questions...

[skavengear]

i think this is getting more comlicated than i intended... i see where it is reasonable that BA get a slightly different cannon since its fast now, and although id like a 5 inch template, its not horrible to lose it. the rules for gw's errata are simple:

ordinance weapons if shot are the only weapon the vehicle can shoot and get 2d6 pen bonus.  all ORDINANCE BLAST weapons use the large blast template.  this would mean say a new codex came out with a ordinance blast version of the missle launcher, itd just make it bigger template.

so there, peace is established 
the ordinance term is just it gets the shots with that weapon and no others and 2d6 pen. if it has ordinance blast term, the blast template is upgraded to large basically. so it is my error, ordinance does not mean they all use large blast, it just means its a big weapon that takes the crew's full attention to fire.

The space marine version is now ordnance blast 1, barrage. whether or not gw erratas the BA's cannon is to be seen

[Rob S]

Right.

There is one example, the IG Valk missile thing.  The specification requirement has been cleared up by GW.

We just took a while to go over the bottom of page 58, where the Ordinance heading is found.

Does the paragraph define ALL "Ordinance" weapons entirely or are people trying to make a case that "ordinance blast" weapons are somehow different (based on the last sentence)?  If they are trying to make a case for "ordinance blast" weapons being different, where is the heading governing them.  Ex:  Ordinance Barrage Weapons.

Is the word "blast" here an adjective, or is it part of some sort of "compound noun"?

As I discussed with Chase, the rules about using the large blast template are under the heading "Ordnance weapons".  There is no specific entry for "Ordnance Blast weapons".  Under the heading, it mentions "...all ordnance blast weapons use..." but does not define that this is the rule for weapons categorized as "Ordnance, Blast" as they are for "Ordnance, Barrage".  Barrage has its own section.  It is simply describing such an "Ordnance weapon".

Not only is this common sense, but those of you trying to say that the BA Vindicator does not use the template are now horribly twisting the wording of an entry.

Tank hunter and Valdor have Ordinance 1 weapons.  Should we also assume that they have blasts?  An earlier version of the Valdor had a blast but it was removed.  The only thing ordinance does is give 2d6 take the highest armor pen.

I don't have IAA2 to read about the Valdor.  The Tank Hunter, however, states right before it that it's an Ordnance weapon that doesn't use the template.  It tells you not to use it, even though it only says "Ordnance" in the profile.  Why would they need to tell you not to use the template if not saying Blast already meant that it wasn't ordnance?[/quote]

  

Ordinance does not infer a blast, just automatically upgrades a small blast to a big blast.

It does infer a blast, as I've shown.

There are other vehicles in 40k that use the ordinance only entry.  It's not twisting.  Is it that inconceivable for BA to have a variant vehicle that isn't completely abusable?  A fast moving demolisher cannon with a 5 inch blast is pretty rough.

And they pay for that.  Like all vehicles that are now fast with them, it costs more points.

Should we assume all 5 inch blasts are ordinance?

That has nothing to do with this.

[Chase]

Should we assume all 5 inch blasts are ordinance?

No, but I think you guys need to provide an argument backed by a rulebook to show that all "Ordnance" don't use the 5 inch blast template (unless otherwise specified).

I think there's a very strong argument that the "Ordinance" heading governs all things listed as "Ordnance"  .  If this is the case, one reading certainly leads one to believe it fires a large blast template.  The other reading is that there is a third kind of "Ordnance" called "Ordnance Blast" but a heading for those rules is not present.  Is it simply that it's covered under "Ordnance" or does it not exist at all?

[Rob S]

ordinance weapons if shot are the only weapon the vehicle can shoot and get 2d6 pen bonus.  all ORDINANCE BLAST weapons use the large blast template.  this would mean say a new codex came out with a ordinance blast version of the missle launcher, itd just make it bigger template.

As I talked about in a previous post, nowhere in that paragraph in the rules does it say that, by "ordnance blast", it means a weapon with the "Blast" term in it.  You can assume that it means that, but isn't that your main argument against this common sense issue?

The term that's being defined is Ordnance in that section.  Not Ordnance Barrage, not Ordnance Blast (which doesn't have an entry).  Just Ordnance.

[Ed]

it doesnt even need the blast its better then a hammerhead

[skavengear]

i want the 5 inch blast too, it shaves away at large units i cant handle and is a pure bitch to deal with. other wise i gotta put back my stupid priest back in and make my librarian an episoltary (a waste of 50 pts pretty much) cuz i spent my last buck buying a vindicator

but it just seems like gw either sucks at wording and editing their books, or im wrong. it does seem odd that they say just ordinance in one part then ordinance blast in another. the major point defending me getting the blast now is under the initial ordinance keyword in the rulebook it references pgs 58 and 60, well 58 is for ORDINANCE BLAST so its like wtf gw!!! make up your mind.

i just wanted to know since everyone i played let me run the 5 inch template till one guy running guard said its not a template so i wanted a double check before doubles so i knew how itd play in the doubles tourney. in this case chase has ruled that for doubles at least it is going to be used as a single shot no template. theres no point arguing chase since hes the tourney's organizer and i dont want a softball in the face

[Ed]

if you want temples play guard

[skavengear]

guard just always seemed to blah and *big shrug* to me... this is only my opinion of what i think sounds cool.  my second choice army has always been the black templar but i chose blood angels cuz they seemed very close to templar and templar looked underpowered but hey, thats just me. next army is definitly templar hands down. i just think they are cool

this is why no matter how often people look down on death company, i refuse to get rid of them because its what made me want to start an army and i thought they looked cool

[Serring]

it doesnt even need the blast its better then a hammerhead

Hammerhead has 6ft of range, ap 1 (or a large blast), fire as if fast, 4+ cover save outside of 12in, can split fire and wound assualting models on 4+ for 180pts.

I think that you underestimate Hammerheads.

[skavengear]

jesus christ! i think that hammerhead >> BA vindicator! 

im thinking after doubles switching to black templars and run this:
grimaldus and retinue and command squad
emperor's champion with accept any challenge
sword bretheren with infiltrate
squads of 10 with 7 initiates (one with melta and one with missle launcher) and 3 shotgun neos
rhino
vindicator

seems pretty cool and fun. any comments?

[Chase]

By the way, I think it's awesome that all of us, except for Rob, have been referring to "Ordnance" as "Ordinance" in this thread.


Definitions:

or·di·nance  (ôrdn-ns)
n.
1. An authoritative command or order.
2. A custom or practice established by long usage.
3. A Christian rite, especially the Eucharist.
4. A statute or regulation, especially one enacted by a city government.


ord·nance  (ôrdnns)
n.
1. Military materiel, such as weapons, ammunition, combat vehicles, and equipment.
2. The branch of an armed force that procures, maintains, and issues weapons, ammunition, and combat vehicles.
3. Cannon; artillery.


I'm not going to go back and edit all of my posts to cover up my error.  GG.

[Banosby]

i mean they argue terminator armor means 40mm base, then they issue tons of models in terminator  armor with 25mm bases, just to make tons of sense

Page 3 of the BRB makes it pretty clear that models should be based on whichever bases they come with. So if GW is selling you models in Terminator armor on 25mm bases, you should be ok basing them on that.

This comes with one caveat. Some models (terminators, IG heavy weapons teams) used to be sold with smaller bases and are now sold with larger bases. I have heard that there are some tournaments that require you to use the 'current' base size for these models, although I've never encountered one myself. The rules seem to say that you can use the 'old' bases, but in the interest of fairness, they like to standardize base size. This is something to check with your TO about before a tournament.

No, but I think you guys need to provide an argument backed by a rulebook to show that all "Ordnance" don't use the 5 inch blast template (unless otherwise specified).

I think there's a very strong argument that the "Ordinance" heading governs all things listed as "Ordnance"  .  If this is the case, one reading certainly leads one to believe it fires a large blast template.  The other reading is that there is a third kind of "Ordnance" called "Ordnance Blast" but a heading for those rules is not present.  Is it simply that it's covered under "Ordnance" or does it not exist at all?

I think I'll probably bow out after this, as the issue seems to be fairly well understood, but I can't resist a parting shot.

Take the following paragraph. I stole it from Wikipedia. It was found under the heading 'chicken'.

'Chickens'

Chickens are omnivores. In the wild, they often scratch at the soil to search for seeds, insects and even larger animals such as lizards or young mice.

Chickens may live for five to eleven years, depending on the breed. In commercial intensive farming, a meat chicken generally lives six weeks before slaughter. A free range or organic meat chicken will usually be slaughtered at about 14 weeks.


Is the author of this section claiming that all chickens are usually slaughtered at about 14 weeks, or that only certain types of chickens, namely 'free range' or 'organic meat chickens' are slaughtered at 14 weeks? I can't see how one could answer this question differently than one answers the question about ordnance and ordnance blast weapons.

[the_trooper]

As a relative of a meat bird owner, I feel I can answer this:

MEAT BIRDS ARE MONSTERS.

True story.  Either it is because of their intense breeding practices, meat birds are omnivorous in the truest sense.  They devour each other if the chance arises.  They are much like the 3.5 daemons of 40k.  After a period, they develop instability and go poof.  If they aren't slaughtered, they die.

[Logan007]

As a relative of a meat bird owner, I feel I can answer this:

MEAT BIRDS ARE MONSTERS.

True story.  Either it is because of their intense breeding practices, meat birds are omnivorous in the truest sense.  They devour each other if the chance arises.  They are much like the 3.5 daemons of 40k.  After a period, they develop instability and go poof.  If they aren't slaughtered, they die.

I vouch for this.

[straightedge166]

This is for that vindicator argument:

page 35 and page 60 Blood Angel codex
35: vindicator. Tank fast. Bs:4 F:13 S:11 R:10
60: Demolisher cannon, Range:24" S:10 Ap:2 type: ordnance 1

page 80 Space marine codex
80: vindicator Tank  Bs:4 F:13 S:11 R:10
80: Demolisher cannon, Range:24" S:10 Ap:2 type: ordnance 1.     It's the same

page 48 and 49 Guard codex
48: Leman Russ Demolisher, Bs:3 F:14 S:13 R:11 tank
49: Demolisher siege cannon, Range:24" S:10 Ap:2 type: ordnance 1 large blast

page 58 of the rulebook
58, ordnance weapons: "Firing a massive ordnance weapon requires the attention of all the gunners of the vehicle, so no other weapons may be fired that turn (not even defensive weapons!). In return they are better at penetrating armour (see page 60). Unless their profile specifies otherwise, all ordnance blast weapons use the large blast marker.

So both vindicators do not use the blast at all.