Iron Man Table?

[Logan007]

I'm interested in this conversation.

Also, how do you all feel about four 5v5 tables and one 10v10 vs. two 5v5 tables and two 10v10?

These are just ideas... nothing is remotely close to set in stone.

I prefer multiple smaller tables. One 10v10 is enough since it's much harder to coordinate that way as well as being a nice way to promote that as the "main" table.

[blantyr]

Is this conversation moving towards something completely out of the spirit of the mega battle?

If we start over analyzing forces and setting up the matches doesn't it just take the game out of the players hands?

Is it in the spirit of the megabattle to create mismatches?  Is the idea to deliberately create situations where a player on the other side can't compete?  I would hope not.  I would think we are looking to create a situation where everyone has fun, not just the power gamers.

Maybe instead of focusing on a table where only super heavies are allowed we should look to having just a table where they are not allowed.  Much in the theme of the underground, which did allow some super heavies, but next year have that be the place to go if you think that you will be too out gunned or don't have access to the models some people do.  It would also be an easier format to limit more stuff like data sheets that allow multiple assets.

I don't think anyone will be coming to the mega battle intending to field no heavy models and expect no heavy models on the other side.  There are a good hefty number of baneblade - warlord - stompa - Frisbee models in the 500 to 750 point weight class.  I'd think we might want one table allowing one such model, one table allowing two, and the third being no limit.  Could these numbers be tweaked?  Sure.  Could we discuss whether one of these table ought to be bigger than the other two?  Definitely.

I just visited the Order forum, browsed the list, and picked out expensive non-codex vehicles, mostly superheavies and titans.  A lot of marine players had Land Raider variants, a bit stronger than the codex Land Raiders, weighing in in the 300 point area.  I don't think these should be limited at all, but I included them in the survey.  I mentioned the Titan Hammer data sheets as these come with vortex grenades and are similar in spirit to a superheavy, weighing in around 1000 points.  What I found for Order was...

Eldar  530  (Frisbee)
Marine 325 & 275
Marine 325
Marine 0
Eldar 0
Titan Legion 3750 points worth of titans.
Marine 600
Marine 0 (Titan Hammer)
Marine 300 (Titan Hammer)
Tao 0
Guard 396 & 500
Guard About 500 & 500  (One of the baneblades was part of a data sheet, no exact points available)
Marine 550 & 720
Marine 400
Inquisition 500, 450, 300, 300
Guard 0
Sisters & Guard, 750  (Titan)
Mechanicus 4000  (Emperor)
Guard 1250???

This did not include fighters, but did include one bomber.  The last Guard player's list is not official.  He arrived late without enough points, and borrowed one of Rob's titans as a last minute thing.  I'm not at all sure I have the number right.  Most of the models in the 500 point range were baneblade variants.

If we are not interested in escalating to higher power levels, and if we do not limit the 300 point or so land raider variants, or similar non structure point models, most people are coming in with two baneblade weight class equivalents or less.  Rob's legion and the Red Emperor stand out like sore thumbs.  I am eager to hear any and all suggestions for how those two might be included while those on the other side of the table from such forces know what they are getting into and come in prepared for the experience.  

If someone would care to do a similar Disorder survey, I'd be interested if their big models are similarly distributed.

I will issue a mild challenge.  If anyone says that limits are not necessary, are they also willing to say "I want to play on the Iron Man table."  Those failing to step up are at risk of rude gestures and less than fully polite words.

[General Leevous]

I am completely up for that challenge! Hopefully ill have my 2nd chaos force by the end of the year which will be a list completely different than my death guard I'm just hoping I can still do good without the help of scabie next year...

[Achillius]

Under 40K V4 rules, distance between shooter and target was measured horizontally.  V5 measures ranges in three dimensions, from tip of the gun to the nearest point of the target.  As the weapons on the top of the Black Emperor were more than 36 inches in the air, there are no effective minimum range limits on the Black Emperor.  

I've a problem with this. V.5 states you measure from model to model. You only check LOS from the weapon.  I'd also point out that this position goes against the wording in the data sheet.

"Towering Monstrosity: Because of its immense size, it is difficult for the
Emperor Titan to engage targets that are too close. Weapons mounted on
the carapace of the Emperor Titan have a minimum range of 36"."

I would expect this to be played as anything within 36 inches of the titan cannot be targeted by the carapace weapons.

If both sides played it that way fine. But you allowed an already strong model to become too strong and removed the "Slight weakness" that is getting under the guns of the carapace mounted weapons.

Maybe something to think about next time...

Cheers,
Alan

[Achillius]

An Iron man table I think it's a great idea. I'm thinking that something larger could be interesting, on the order of 8 or 9ft wide and 12ft long. Then play the game length ways. It's just an initial thought and I'm sure there's pros and cons...

Cheers,
Alan

[the_trooper]

Under 40K V4 rules, distance between shooter and target was measured horizontally.  V5 measures ranges in three dimensions, from tip of the gun to the nearest point of the target.  As the weapons on the top of the Black Emperor were more than 36 inches in the air, there are no effective minimum range limits on the Black Emperor.  

I've a problem with this. V.5 states you measure from model to model. You only check LOS from the weapon.  I'd also point out that this position goes against the wording in the data sheet.

"Towering Monstrosity: Because of its immense size, it is difficult for the
Emperor Titan to engage targets that are too close. Weapons mounted on
the carapace of the Emperor Titan have a minimum range of 36"."

I would expect this to be played as anything within 36 inches of the titan cannot be targeted by the carapace weapons.

If both sides played it that way fine. But you allowed an already strong model to become too strong and removed the "Slight weakness" that is getting under the guns of the carapace mounted weapons.

Maybe something to think about next time...

Cheers,
Alan

What does the apocalyse rule book state about superheavies since a titan is a superheavy not a normal vehicle?

[the_trooper]

Go big or go home!  Its more a blustering khornate chest thumping  


 I'd go on an ironman table but using a banelord can't be consider WAAC when compared to a tooled up Warlord of equal points.

[blantyr]

Under 40K V4 rules, distance between shooter and target was measured horizontally.  V5 measures ranges in three dimensions, from tip of the gun to the nearest point of the target.  As the weapons on the top of the Black Emperor were more than 36 inches in the air, there are no effective minimum range limits on the Black Emperor.  

I've a problem with this. V.5 states you measure from model to model. You only check LOS from the weapon.  I'd also point out that this position goes against the wording in the data sheet.

"Towering Monstrosity: Because of its immense size, it is difficult for the
Emperor Titan to engage targets that are too close. Weapons mounted on
the carapace of the Emperor Titan have a minimum range of 36"."

I would agree with Alan.  Quite aside from rules lawyering how to cross the wording of the data sheet with the V5 rules, the intent of the Emperor rules set was that there should be a 36" zone where one cannot be caught by the Castle weaponry.  If we intend to have ordinary armies fighting Emperors, I'd really like to see the spirit and intent of the data sheet restored.

If I'm allowed to propose a common sense alternative, we might consider a 45 degree down firing arc.  An Emperor shooting at another Emperor shouldn't have trouble bringing guns to bear, even if they are close to one another.

It might be worth starting a new thread for rules discussions separate from Iron Man table discussion.  Should we restore the Flank March limit?  Are there data sheets that are excessively potent and might be limited or removed?

[Achillius]

Under 40K V4 rules, distance between shooter and target was measured horizontally.  V5 measures ranges in three dimensions, from tip of the gun to the nearest point of the target.  As the weapons on the top of the Black Emperor were more than 36 inches in the air, there are no effective minimum range limits on the Black Emperor.  

I've a problem with this. V.5 states you measure from model to model. You only check LOS from the weapon.  I'd also point out that this position goes against the wording in the data sheet.

"Towering Monstrosity: Because of its immense size, it is difficult for the
Emperor Titan to engage targets that are too close. Weapons mounted on
the carapace of the Emperor Titan have a minimum range of 36"."

I would expect this to be played as anything within 36 inches of the titan cannot be targeted by the carapace weapons.

If both sides played it that way fine. But you allowed an already strong model to become too strong and removed the "Slight weakness" that is getting under the guns of the carapace mounted weapons.

Maybe something to think about next time...

Cheers,
Alan

What does the apocalyse rule book state about superheavies since a titan is a superheavy not a normal vehicle?

I'm not sure what you're getting at...

It says exactly what I just said it does. Always use real line of sight from the weapon. Nothing about measuring...



Cheers,
Alan

[Achillius]

Go big or go home!  Its more a blustering khornate chest thumping  


 I'd go on an ironman table but using a banelord can't be consider WAAC when compared to a tooled up Warlord of equal points.

I'd consider neither WAAC...
But any comparison of the two depends, on how far apart they are at the start of the game

[blantyr]

An Iron man table I think it's a great idea. I'm thinking that something larger could be interesting, on the order of 8 or 9ft wide and 12ft long. Then play the game length ways. It's just an initial thought and I'm sure there's pros and cons...

Cheers,
Alan

This is worth considering, I think.  With only six feet of depth to a table, Emperors end up very close to the front line, unable to use their long range to advantage.  Using four 6x4 tables to create a 12x8 could be an interesting change.

I would suggest several things to consider before committing to it.  First, I half jokingly suggested that we might want the Grand Ballroom next year.  Having more space for mustering would have been nice, and would give us more freedom to experiment with table alignments.  Before we go with 12x8, we'd want to think about how to lay out our available space.  This year's game worked very well, but we were getting close to the limits of the room.

Also, we had a total of 12 4x6 tables this year, set up in groups of 3, 6 and 3.  Setting up a 12x8 Iron Man table would use a third of this year's table space.  Assuming we don't go wild with expansion, trying to play 30 players against 30 players, will a third of our players volunteer for Iron Man play?  While I don't want to tell the Big Boy players to just go home, we might want to balance the amount of table space dedicated to a given style of play to the number of players who are playing that style.  If one looks at the Order army lists at least, the vast bulk of the players are coming in with the equivalent of zero to two baneblades.  If Disorder's army lists turn out to be similar, I believe the vast bulk of the table space might properly be dedicated to the vast bulk of the players.

There is also a logistical problem with Emperors on a 12x8 table.  This year's lunar Emperors were placed on the very edge of a table, and either not moved or moved only an inch a turn.  An emperor is not likely to be moved into the middle of a 12x8 as it will be very awkward to reach into the center of a big table and move the (expletive deleted) things.  (Anyone want to equip their Emperor model with functional wheels and radio control?   )

We might also consider the Iron Man table at 8 x 6 feet, with the 8 feet being depth, the six feet being width.  We might put four players per side on a relatively small table, and hope that insanity isn't contagious.

I also note that tables might have themes as well as power levels.  This year, one of the sewer tables had a Necron slant, while all the scenery on the moon was Imperial.  

If we had 3 or 4 tables, it might be tempting to graduate them from more to less superheavies.  One table might be Iron Man, the next zero to one baneblades, the last one to two baneblades.  (A 'baneblade' might be anything in the 450 to 750 point weight class.  A single model up to 1250 points might count as 2 baneblades.  All negotiable.)

Alternatively, we might prefer an Iron Man table and several themed tables, with all themed tables accepting zero to two baneblades.  Thus, the Eldar player will feel free to play on the Eldar themed table (Ha!) without worrying about how many superheavies he intends to bring.

Lots and lots of possibilities, but let's remember the practical limits as well.

[blantyr]

Wasn't following the abbreviation.  Let's see.  Which of these would apply?

WAAC   Women's Auxiliary Army Corps (USA-WWII)
WAAC   Western Association for Art Conservation
WAAC   Western Australian AIDS Council
WAAC   World Algeria Action Coalition
WAAC   Workshop on Algorithms and Computation
WAAC   Women’s Abortion Action Campaign
WAAC   Women's Art Association of Canada
WAAC   Windsor Accessibility Advisory Committee (Windsor, ON, Canada)
WAAC   Wheels Accessible Advisory Committee
WAAC   Western Association of Agriculture Councils
WAAC   Win At All Cost
WAAC   Waukee Area Arts Council (Waukee, Iowa, USA)
WAAC   Weighted Average Adjustment Coefficient
WAAC   World Amazigh Action Coalition, Inc. (Canada)

[Opforce3]

i will continue for another year with my stance of "just tell me what i can and cannot take, and put me somewhere where i can kill alot of people"

[Moosifer]

One thing I would LOVE to point out with this conversation is that we had how many weeks(months) to plan ahead for things.  We had our own messages boards to communicate between teammates so we didnt have the 200+ response email we had the year before (thanks Chase and Derek).  The Order side pretty much filled up in a day and after that you had a ton of time to consider what you were bringing and try and figure out how you were going to "gel" with your teammates.

Alot of emphasis has been placed on the Super Heavies Race (Won by Nick and Mike), and it really holds no water.  As someone who has played in all 3 Mega Battle's so far, the best way to win is to communicate with your teammates and formulate a plan that works.  Rich brought THREE models, which meant he could not score a thing, so I took 9 scoring units to complement his force, while at the same time supporting him with my Flyer's.  If the Banelord did not get into close combat, you were looking at 9 melta guns(bs4), 6 twin linked Las Cannons (hitting side armor, BS3), 1 Las Cannon (BS5), 2 Super Snipers (BS5) being thrown down on that emperor first turn they came on the board.  We PLANNED for the eventuality of a titan, but were not expecting it.

If we decide to be part of the team and build lists that COMPLIMENT each other, why do we even need an Iron Man table?

[jesterofthedark]

Once again I propose a group of individuals, seasoned players, be organized to have these kinds of discussions.  Sadly, while many people make valid arguements both ways on the various rules that become disputed, not every opinion is going to have the game's best interests at heart.  I have no doubt that many of the arguments we have heard and will hear are all about keeping the game fair.  But, sometimes in the pursuit of a truely balanced game, we end up un-intentionally unbalancing that game. 

I don't think its done because people are trying to "house" the table, or to completely own the other team.  We may boast that as our goal, but I assure you that is usually not the goal ( ). 

The item at hand is how to slow the "arms" race, but what makes an unbiased arguement?  Can someone that feels they should have the game formed to represent what they feel the mega battle should be, really be called upon to no have a jaded opinion?  If I had to field a codex list opposite an emperor I think I may walk away feeling like that has no right to be in the game.  Counter that will a player's liberal use of his super heavies over the span of the table, he feels that he used them in a way that did not ruin the game for everyone else.  I think the majority would tend to side with the victimized player, we want him to come back next year and have a good game.  So, limitations are suggested, but what happens when the player A now meets another unplanned obsticle mid game?  Do we make a snap ruling just to smooth the situation over and continue the game moving?

Before someone makes a suggestion about limiting a format that was intended to be absurd, even though I think we (battlegrounds 40k community) take it too a level many other gaming communities can only dream off.  I think they need to sit down and reassess what it is they are looking for out of the mega battle.  Darn it, maybe that person should just post what they feel made the event less enjoyable and leave it at that.  I think that may just be the way to go, we form a list.  No suggestions on what to fix, just a list.  On that list a person just states what he/she didn't enjoy, no more no less. 

Then once the list is compiled we can tackle it as a team, no one saying I didn't like A so lets do this.  Its hard for a reader to disassociate the bias from it all.  Just state a fact and we can come back to it.  Gosh guys.  I think this may make strides towards what we all really want. 

An event everyone can walk out of with a smile on their faces......   I have a dream gentlemen, a dream of an annual game we can all have fun at.  Won't you stand up with me and together we can make this dream a reality.