Clarification on some Apocalypse Rules

[Rurouni Benshin]

I know that for purposes of Strategic Reserve, that a single datasheet, whether it be a single unit or a formation, counts as one unit in Strategic Reserve.  So when said unit is brought into play, all of the models in the formation must come out together.

Here is my question.

Say for example I'm using a Spearhead Formation (3+ Land Raiders).  The datasheet only mentions each type of Land Raider to be in this formation.  If I were to use the Land Raiders as dedicated transports for infantry models, would that count as 2 (or more) units coming into play from Strategic Reserve?

Example:

I have a total of 4 units in my army, one of them being a Spearhead Formation, and one a unit of Terminators.  I put the other 2 units on the board at the start of the game, leaving the Spearhead and the Terminators in reserve.  Normally, on turn 2, one of the two units would come into play, while the other would come in on turn 3.  However, could I instead, have placed the Terminators inside a Land Raider (acting as a Dedicated Transport), and have them come out into play on turn 2?  Does the fact that Terminators can take an LR as a DT circumvent the rule about half my units in reserve coming out?

I've read through the Apocalypse book, covering everything on Strategic Reserve, and couldn't find clarification on this.

Thanks!

[blantyr]

Hmmm....

Apocalypse Page 23 Strategic Reserves...  Turn Two:  "Up to half (rounding fractions up) of the units the player has in strategic reserve may be committed to the battle."

You sound like you want to bring 100% of your strategic reserve out on turn two.  I don't think that works.

I am not sure if you have one unit or two in reserve.  The spearhead formation of 3 land raiders is one unit for purposes of exiting reserve.  I'm not sure if dedicated transport makes the terminators part of the spearhead, or if the terminators remain a separate unit.  I would lean towards saying the are separate units???

The cheesy bypass would be to buy two more units, as cheap as possible, and put them in reserve.  (Land Speeders come to mind.)  You can then have the spearhead and terminators come out on turn 2, the cheap units on turn 3. 

It meets the letter of the rule.  It might cause people to gag a bit.  Still, it seems like the clean way to bring raiders and terminators out together on turn 2.

You could also have them come out together on turn 3, but the war would be half over.

[General Leevous]

Land raiders outside of the demonhunter codex are heavy support and may not be dedicated transports. Though they may have a transport capacity, they may not be dedicated to any unit.

[jesterofthedark]

If you can take the Land Raider as a deicated transport than yes you could have their parent unit inside during deployment.  So, for example, you could have the spearhead come in loaded with its terminator unit embarked.

page 101 of the Apocalypse rules books covers this in the Data sheet entry explanation.  "Formation: This states the number of units required, chosen from the relevant codex( of Imperial Armour book).  There may be minimum or maximum number for certain units.  Any options normally allowed may be chosed at the usual points cost (including dedicated transports)"  Note that a model can only ever be part of one battle formation.

[blantyr]

If you can take the Land Raider as a deicated transport than yes you could have their parent unit inside during deployment.  So, for example, you could have the spearhead come in loaded with its terminator unit embarked.

page 101 of the Apocalypse rules books covers this in the Data sheet entry explanation.  "Formation: This states the number of units required, chosen from the relevant codex( of Imperial Armour book).  There may be minimum or maximum number for certain units.  Any options normally allowed may be chosed at the usual points cost (including dedicated transports)"  Note that a model can only ever be part of one battle formation.

If we had a terminator data sheet, And the terminators had an option for land raider dedicated transports,  I'd be with you 100%.  It would all be a single formation.  He'd still have the problem of bringing 100% of his reserves out on turn 2, though.

But this is a land raider data sheet.  Land raiders to not have an option for terminators as part of their codex descriptions or data sheets.  This makes me less than 100% sure it would count as a single formation. 

But the spirit of what he is doing is absolutely right.  There ought to be a way.  To me, it is just a question of whether he needs to put one or two other units in reserve.  I'm not really sure.

[Logan007]

The land raider data sheet counts as one. Every unit using those land raiders as a transport counts as one.

This is before combining units, so if say, sicarius were to join with a squad of terminators, they'd count as two.

Of course, if those units themselves were part of a datasheet, then they'd all count as just one.

[jesterofthedark]

So wait if a data sheet counts as one and it involves taking two tactical squads of marines.  Are you saving that they can not take rhinos because they would then as multiple units in reserve.  because the data sheet descriptions states that even thought the given sheet may not specify, units composing the data sheet are still allowed to take their normal options i.e. weapons upgrades, unit upgrades, and dedicated transports.

Of course looking at it now the land raiders are the data sheet, which I would assume over rides their job as dedicated transport.  So, you would be taking three raiders as though they were heavy support choices.  Since you would have to be taking the squad that rides in the raider before you picked it as a dedicated transport. 

So, ya the terminies are staying in reserve till turn three unless you take careful planning.  Bring'em in turn one and two respectively.

[Rurouni Benshin]

Thanks for the clarification, guys.  This'll help a lot later on.

[Logan007]

So wait if a data sheet counts as one and it involves taking two tactical squads of marines.  Are you saving that they can not take rhinos because they would then as multiple units in reserve.  because the data sheet descriptions states that even thought the given sheet may not specify, units composing the data sheet are still allowed to take their normal options i.e. weapons upgrades, unit upgrades, and dedicated transports.

Of course looking at it now the land raiders are the data sheet, which I would assume over rides their job as dedicated transport.  So, you would be taking three raiders as though they were heavy support choices.  Since you would have to be taking the squad that rides in the raider before you picked it as a dedicated transport. 

So, ya the terminies are staying in reserve till turn three unless you take careful planning.  Bring'em in turn one and two respectively.

Since Space marine tactical squads can take rhinos, then any datasheet that involves tactical squads will count rhinos they take as part of the datasheet. Unless, of course, that datasheet specifies the transport the marine squad has to take (like the drop pod datasheets).

When it comes to the landraiders, yes, I would assume that they weren't dedicated transports to begin with (mostly because doing it otherwise is kinda shady).

[jesterofthedark]

On an unrelated note, Mike your my hero.  Come post in our forum.