Ian, Rich, Mike, Kev, Paul, whoever... Re: Claiming Objectives

[Chase]

Can one, some, or all of you please post (in detail) how the claiming / contesting of objectives worked in the two test Megabattles this past year?

[Rob S]

It worked based upon the normal 40k rules.  At least one scoring troops choice had to be within 6" of the objective, with no other troops (scoring or not) within in order to claim it.

[jesterofthedark]

Year One we did it that any troops on an objective claimed the objective for their side at the end of the game.  Any vehicles or other force within 6" controlled by an oppposing team member contested it.

Last year it was that only an Infantry troop choice could claim and hold an objective, also the objective once controlled could only be contested by an infantry troop choice of an opposing team. 

Last year's scoring was something that the store came up with and not per the current scoring rules of either apocalypse or normal 40k.

[Chase]

I'm curious about what went on in the two test Megabattles that were played over this past year.

I was lead to believe that some sort of "point value" was given to each kind of model and objectives were claimed / contested based on whichever side had the most "points" within 6 inches of the objective.

The actual claiming / contesting of objectives is what I'd like to refine next.  People seemed unhappy with allowing only troops to claim / contest last year so we might be going with something different this year.

If people have suggestions this is the place to post them.  I'd really like to hear opinions and/or ideas.

[blantyr]

40K, basic rules, page 90 defines 'scoring units' as troops, but not vehicles, not swarms, and not units with special rule saying they can't score.  In basic 40K, anything can contest.

I've heard a lot of folks say in Apocalypse anything scores.  Looking at page 24 of the Apocalypse rules, "An objective is captured if a player has a scoring unit within 6 inches of it and there are no enemy scoring units within 6 inches of it."  Only 'scoring units' can control or contest.  I have found no definition of "scoring unit" in the Apocalypse rules.  Thus, I would assume that the definition of "scoring unit" from page 90 of the 40K rules would apply...  troops, not a vehicle, not a swarm.

If this is the case, the 'official' rule ought to be that only troops (not vehicles, not swarms) can control or contest.  If someone could find an Apocalypse definition of 'scoring unit' and prove me wrong, I'd be very pleased.

This doesn't mean we have to pay much attention to the 'official' rule.

I don't particularly care for only troops scoring.  I'd like most units on the board able to both control and contest.  I just don't see the logic of a single guardsman controlling an objective when a bunch of enemy terminators are standing right next to him.  Why are better trained and equipped people unable to claim an objective???

If people want to argue that this type of unit or that can't control or contest, I'm open to discussion.  Flyers never count as scoring, for example.  (Page 94 of Apocalypse.)  Perhaps they should be able to control and contest if they are in hover mode.   Swarms and vehicles might also be nominated as types of units that shouldn't control and / or contest.  Other types might be proposed. 

I'm open to a list of non-scoring and non-contesting unit types, but I'd personally prefer to keep that list very short.

[blantyr]

Let me throw up a target for people to tweak.  This is intended as an initial proposal rather than best and final.

Vehicles and swarms may contest but not control.  A vehicle whose armament has been entirely destroyed may not contest.

Other types (infantry, jump infantry, bikes, jetbikes, beasts, cavalry, monstrous creatures, gargantuan creatures, artillery, etc...  but excepting flyers) may either control or contest.

Flyers operating at altitude may neither contest or control.  Flyers with the hover mode rule acting as skimmers may contest but not control as per other vehicles.

[Moosifer]

The scoring we had discussed for the second test battle was that it was a weighted system like 4th edition where you would have everything count as scoring (sorry but when we talking about EPIC fights, Ensign Ricky and his flashlight should not be the only one allowed to score) and each model had a different point value

1 point - Non Monsterous Creatures (gaunts, guardsmen, sternguard, terminators, etc.)
10 Points - Monsterous Creatures, Non Structure Point Vehicles, Flyers (Daemon Princes, Rhinos, Arvus Lighter)
30 Points - Gargantuan Creatures and Structure Point Vehicles/Walkers (Baneblade, Angrath)

Something that you guys had been discussing was that when you have an objective you need to have X (X was 5 for the discussion) more points than your oppenent in order for you to claim the objective, otherwise you would be tied for the objective.  And I believe you were talking about it being with 6" of the object being counted when you were asking for who has what objective

[the_trooper]

Rick has it.  The only thing on that list would be the fliers score with hover mode but this was not really tested as we did not have many fliers being used.

It's a great fair way of doing it and horders (like IG and orks) can contribute whole platoons for the price of a baneblade.

[Chase]

The scoring we had discussed for the second test battle was that it was a weighted system like 4th edition where you would have everything count as scoring (sorry but when we talking about EPIC fights, Ensign Ricky and his flashlight should not be the only one allowed to score) and each model had a different point value

1 point - Non Monsterous Creatures (gaunts, guardsmen, sternguard, terminators, etc.)
10 Points - Monsterous Creatures, Non Structure Point Vehicles, Flyers (Daemon Princes, Rhinos, Arvus Lighter)
30 Points - Gargantuan Creatures and Structure Point Vehicles/Walkers (Baneblade, Angrath)

Something that you guys had been discussing was that when you have an objective you need to have X (X was 5 for the discussion) more points than your oppenent in order for you to claim the objective, otherwise you would be tied for the objective.  And I believe you were talking about it being with 6" of the object being counted when you were asking for who has what objective

How do people feel about this?  Personally, I think it seems very easy to manipulate.


Edit:  In thinking about it a little more…. I think with some work that it could be okay.   Figuring out what the right number for “X” is will be important.  Scoring at the top of the round could make something like this a little bit more interesting in my opinion.

I think certain rules or revisions might be needed.  For instance, nothing is more lame than packing one of those Baneblade variants full of 40 troops and then parking it on an objective… having it count for 70 points and have a giant footprint that blocks out all sorts of other stuff…. Or in the same line of thinking, a Plague Tower with an even bigger footprint and even more structure points full of 30 dudes doing the same type of thing.  In an effort to avoid that shenanigans, models that are not on the table will NOT be counted towards scoring.  If the cheese involved here revolves around the fact that the dudes inside the transports get to jump out when the 30 point super-heavy dies, then I’d like to just say that anything with a transport capacity at all can not count for scoring or contesting.

It’s important to me for the game to not degenerate into parking super-heavy transports packed full of stuff on an objective.  In my opinion, this type of thing is a shining star example of manipulating this scoring system.

[the_trooper]

Someone afraid I'll bring 1000 4 point zombies to take an objective?

What are your concerns?

[General Leevous]

We tested this out and it worked swimmingly. A lot better than last year but I guarantee someone will have a problem with this...

[Achillius]

Honestly I'm much more in favor of the Cinematic\story part of the game, so I tend to lean towards the dreaded realism. Here's a foundation.

1. It takes thought to control anything. And Real estate is controlled using men on the ground.
2. A man looking down the barrel of a cannon on a Tank Cannot be claim to be in control of a whole lot.
3. An Immobilized vehicle, with out dismounted infantry support is a liability, and is only concerned with it's own survival.
4. A mobile Vehicle with weapons is more than capable of making life extremely unpleasant for things around it.
5. All men are not created equal. 10 men are not going to be bothered by 2. However 10 would be concerned and upset by 5. Similarly a greater Daemon would hardly be upset by 5 space marines, but would be concerned by 5 spacemarine terminators (10 models in size) backed up by a fully functioning land raider.


Ok. So a rules proposal.
Objective claiming
To claim the majority of the unit\creatiures base must be within 6 inches of the objective
Only models with a leadership value can claim objectives.
I'd like to make it so that they must be dismounted or in dedicated transports.


Contesting:
Basically Anything except Flyers (in flight mode), Immobilized vehicles or vehicles with no weapons is eligible to contest objectives.

Then we look to Ricks scoring. (though I've modified it  slightly)
1 point - Non Monsterous Creatures (gaunts, guardsmen, sternguard, terminators, etc.)
10 Points - Monsterous Creatures, Non Structure Point Vehicles, Flyers (Daemon Princes, Rhinos, Arvus Lighter)
20 Points - Gargantuan Creatures and Structure Point Vehicles/Walkers (Baneblade, Stompa) <500Points in value
25 Points - Gargantuan Creatures and Structure Point Vehicles/Walkers (Titan, Angrath) >500points in value

In order to contest you must:
 Have at least 25% of the points of the "Controlling force"
 
So Angrath could be contested by a squad of 6 guardsman, his attention is distracted by this annoyance, and he will claim blood.

on the flip side, 100 Guardmen cannot claim an objective with Angrath standing on top of it, he's far too distracting.


It's a thought. I thinks it's relatively clear, and meets the spirit of what we're trying to do.

Cheers,
Alan

[Chase]

Someone afraid I'll bring 1000 4 point zombies to take an objective?

What are your concerns?

Honestly, I'm much less concerned with lots of small stuff than I am with 1 or 2 big things, that are low(er) priority, and have a large footprint.

A team should not "auto claim" an objective because they have a Heirophant sitting on it that happens to be almost impossible to kill (and takes up the entire 1'x1' area used in claiming / contesting the objective).

Thinking about that example is cool in terms of the "story" or the "picture" it might create.  If it were to happen by chance it might even be awesome.... The problem comes when people design their armies and plan to take advantage of this type of thing because it easily manipulates the claiming / contesting rules.

[General Leevous]

Well look who was right! Well my oppinion is going to be a question. How complicated do you wanna make things? We had the play test for scorings sake, to find a simple and easy solution to the headache that is coming up with rules. Idk that's just my oppinion...

[the_trooper]

Heirophant, Nick's Emperor class titan can put 50 dudes in it, titans in general, Stormlord and other baneblade variants with troop transport capacity.

I'm against making it complicated.

Both sides are capable of doing the same thing. 


Are you saying that 1 guardsman can contest against 100 plague marines?