Opinions new Tyranid 'dex

[Grimwulfe]

In this case I would like to think that smoke and by nature Storm for the spacewolves would put the vehicle into cover.  And would therefore still give them there save against these guys.

[Matt Thomas]

Unfortunetly, I think by RAW the Rhino would not be able to. I don't have the 'dex in front of me but I beleive the wording for the Hive guard says you only get the save if you are in cover or touching it. I think technically since the cover being provided by the rhino is given by wargear not terrain. I'm gonna take a look at the marine 'dex when I get home to read the wording.

IIRC it says they get a save from cover they are in or touching only if the cover is between them and the guard but I could have that wrong. Definitely 'check the Dex/RAW' time.

[Matt Thomas]

My thought on how to use the hive guard was more along the lines of keeping the Hive Guard behind a wall or similar while shooting out, so regardless of wither the opponent gets a save... you are shooting them and nothing is coming back at you.
Failing that the closest thing possible.

I think their usefulness will depend a lot on the board setup.

[jhobin]

I've just been proxy the model's so far but I think they are small enough that you could probably hide them behind a carnfex sized model.

I think the Harpoon cannon is similiar in effect to a flamer in that it negates cover, except it doesn't use a template. If a heavy flamer were to hit a rhino it wouldn't get it smoke save, right?

Edit:
Found from another forum rule reads;

"The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard."

The key word being "only". By this does it mean that if you are not in or touching terrain you do not get a save? Does this over ride all other ways to gain cover i.e. smoke, going fast, etc. By RAW I think it does.

[Opforce3]

a rhino in smoke is its own cover.

[jhobin]

No it provides a cover save, it does not create cover.

You can't use common sense in a RAW interpretation

[Matt Thomas]

"The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard."

The key word being "only". By this does it mean that if you are not in or touching terrain you do not get a save? Does this over ride all other ways to gain cover i.e. smoke, going fast, etc. By RAW I think it does.

The way I read that is...
For cover the target is in or touching... it must be between the target and Hive guard to count. Other things that provide a cover save would still work.

Not sure if that is correct though. I think the rule could be better worded (SHOCK!!).

[Matt Thomas]

a rhino in smoke is its own cover.

jhobin is correct on this one. For RAW it provides a cover save. No cover is created.
We already covered how people might play for fluff but when talking RAW... the rules are the rules.

That said my reading of the exact wording for the rule... the Rhino get's the cover save anyway. But I could be wrong.

[jhobin]

I think the key part is the word "only". That condition has to be met in order to receive the outcome.

In this case by the wording of the rule the condition is you have to be in or touching the terrain to recieve the cover save. By this wording all other instances are a mute point. i.e. going fast or poping smoke. For instance the rhino has poped smoke with the above rule is the rhino in cover, no, he has the benefits of a cover save but he is not physically in cover, therefore he does not get a save and going fast the same case.

That being said I can see both side's of the argument. I have looked in the rulebooks and can't seem to find a rule by RAW that would support smoke and psyhic powers getting there save. I would love to be wrong on this can someone point to a page that would contradite this?

[Matt Thomas]

"The target can only count the benefits of cover they are in or touching if it lies between them and the Hive Guard."

Actually I think it all comes down to a very small semantic point.
The sentence could be read as:
Only count the benefits of cover IF X
or as
Only count the benefits of type of cover Y IF X

It is obviously not written very well but... I think the second is the correct interpretation. Think:

"The target can only count the benefits of (cover they are in or touching) if it lies between them and the Hive Guard."

No effect on the benefits of cover they are not in or touching.
This may not have been GWs intent. Intent is hard to judge but I think this is a rather silly rule if the RAW is what was intended.
However if the alternative was the case the rule would have to read:

"The target can only count the benefits of cover if they are in or touching if it and it lies between them and the Hive Guard."

At least that is how I read it. Again I think that makes it a silly rule, because an intervening unit would grant cover (for example) and I think the intent was to NOT allow that type of cover save. I firmly believe in never attempting to play some bullshit rules as intended because you just never know.

[jhobin]

Watch the Language  

I think its a wait and see what's ruled by GW or INATFAQ. I am always interested in rule interpretations and have been a rule judge on occasion and as a competitor in this game I like to think up things my opponents may try rule-wise.

EDIT: INATFAQ did rule that psyker's and such do confer there ability, which is cool by me  

Interestingly they also say that went a tyrant is joined with tyrant guard they are essentially a retinue and the tyrant can not be picked out and the tyrant is free to come and go from the unit

[Matt Thomas]

EDIT: INATFAQ did rule that psyker's and such do confer there ability, which is cool by me  

huh? Not sure what you mean by 'confer their ability'.

Interestingly they also say that went a tyrant is joined with tyrant guard they are essentially a retinue and the tyrant can not be picked out and the tyrant is free to come and go from the unit

Doesn't that directly contradict the book? Last edition they were a retinue but this addition nothing was said like that. 5th ed they can't be singled out in CC?

[jhobin]

Confer their abilities i.e. smoke cloud for the orks, Space puppies storm thingy. doesn't mention smoke launcher but I would assume they fall under this category.

The INATFAQ re-writes some ambigous stuff. I think in this case its the wording of the shieldwall rule.

They havtheir ups and downs as far as FAQ's go but they are the most comprehensive now that GW doesn't do them. They are also what is universally used for independantly run GT's everywhere (at leaset the good ones!  )

[Matt Thomas]

So what do you think of the venomthrope?
Seems to me like it is over-cost for what you get, or under survivable. At 5 points less than a Zoenthrope I am having a hard time seeing why you would go that route.
Very cool fluff wise, and the model is cool, but I am not sure about the rules.

[jhobin]

The only use I can see for them is in what I've been calling the 'buff' army. Basically layering all transferrable special abilities close to each other so you can make super-gaunts. I was thinking of taking 2 indepdant and hiding them behin tervigon's. The tervigon should be big enough to conceal them from some shots. Also making sure your gaunt bullet screen is with 6' will give them and the tervigon's a 5+ inv. Not to bad for 55pts.