Opinions new Tyranid 'dex

[Matt Thomas]

I agree with what your saying Matt. The gargoyle's I think are still funtional but they can't fill the role that they use to. I was talking with some friends who play 'Nids last weekend, one of the big things we noticed is how gargoyle's are now an assault troop vs shock and awe.

The thing is they are deep strikers who move quickly. Making them have to stay in synapse range makes me wonder if they have ANY real roll left or if it is more of a 'well if you like those you can use them to...' type of thing. As far as I can tell they no longer have any unique roll.

It seems like they have 2 use's now 1.) maxed out squad used to give cover save to Warrior's (strangly enough they are bug enough now.

Warriors are not monsterous creatures (IIRC) so they get cover from any intervening unit.
Only the winged warriors would need the gargoyles vs. something else as screening due to speed issues. And I am not sure if the investment would be worth it. Very situational. I think you would have to play it a bunch before you knew.

2.) assault you need to buy poison sacs for them. They have a big negative now of drop in Ld and there is not much that can give them a cover save is a big hinderance for both use's.

Well the Tervigon can give them invulruble saves but I don't know what the point would be over a better unit.
The thing is they lost an attack and living ammunition (though they gained that roll a 6 = wound thing) so I am not sure how much I like them as shock troops.

So far they seem to have run into the "I heard that unit was nasty kill it" syndrome.

Could be their point is to distract the opponent's fire for the first couple of months of the codex being out and then sit on a shelf and look pretty.

the big guy is called a Tervigon, and your right its almost a necessity for any gaunt based army now.

Not just guant based armies. Both his best psychic powers work on any unit. 6 wound high toughness synapse creature with potential 18" synapse or a feel no pain save for any unit around it? Plus at least once a game it farts out a scoring unit?
Sure he wants guants around to be at his best and it is easier to fit him on the list if you take one unit but I don't think he will be limited to gaunt based armies. There is just too much awesome in that model. (which is why I am not a huge fan)

I havn't played with Zoenthropes in the new dex and never really did in the last. Most people seem to have been playing them with 2x in a spore pod.

That makes sense. 2 Zoenthropes is a decent price point vs. survivability and chance of their blasts hitting, and the pod gets them where they are needed. I would be tempted to strip the pod for points savings but it can shoot too so that is a consideration.

I don't particularly like the susceptibility of these new multi-wound expensive (points wise) models to instant death even if you are careful about synapse range. But it is what it is. I do however like that they fixed shadow in the warp so it is meaningful again.

And I will continue to lament the lower number of biomorphs available indefinitely.

[Opforce3]

this post upsets me.

[Matt Thomas]

this post upsets me.

Huh? Why?

[Opforce3]

40k should not be about "if X and Y and Z align properly, i win the game. i should do that ever time." and i see it more and more. its codex creep.

[General Leevous]

40k should not be about "if X and Y and Z align properly, i win the game. i should do that ever time." and i see it more and more. its codex creep.

agreed, field what you think is cool... not everything has to be about powergaming

[Opforce3]

like my 8 point guardsmen, who are the mainstay of an army without access tothe vast majority of the poweful choices from their real list.

[the_trooper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I97qAyRq_F0

[Matt Thomas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I97qAyRq_F0

That vid is awesome.

[Matt Thomas]

40k should not be about "if X and Y and Z align properly, i win the game. i should do that ever time." and i see it more and more. its codex creep.

I agree there is codex creep... or more than creep, maybe codex Zoom. I don't particularly like it but it is a way to sell models. It will be part of any game.

What you are describing with X+Y+Z = powerful is NOT codex creep. That is figuring out how units work together to face a variety of challenges. Many people enjoy figuring out those combination even if they only field them once to prove their theory worked and then move on to other ideas.
As a player of a zero sum game you had better expect that some players will look at a codex and figure out that X unit just isn't worth it and field it very rarely, while Y unit is good at its job and field that, because like it or not some people want to play with the intention of trying to win.

As far as the post upsetting you, please note that I am not advocating using a particular unit all the time because it is powerful, I was pointing out that you will see many players doing that, and that I don't like it when they print units/models that are such a blatantly good choice.

Personally I own Gargoyles and once assembled will field them because they look cool. That in no way stops me from pointing out that in the 4E codex they were by no means amazing but filled a clear roll in the army, and in the 5E the lost that roll.

[Matt Thomas]

agreed, field what you think is cool... not everything has to be about powergaming

There is a difference between fielding a balanced coherent list and power gaming. And there is a huge difference between discussing a list seeming to be stupidly broken and showing up to play with it.
Believe it or not this game has a winner and a looser (0 sum) and some people like figuring out which units are good at which things, and against which opponents.

....... 1, 2, 3, 4, I declare a flame war.

[the_trooper]

Believe it or not this game has a winner and a looser (0 sum)

Actually, have you played 5th edition? 

"Oh look, it's the 1/3 of missions we auto tie!"

"GG Buddy!"

I really want the fabled missions book to come out. *sigh*

[Rurouni Benshin]

...some players will look at a codex and figure out that X unit just isn't worth it and field it very rarely...

This is what I've come to conclude about the Space Marines Land Raider.  For 250 points base, it just doesn't give me the return that 2 or 3 other units that total up to 250 points would get me.

But onto the Tyranid Codex, I don't think that there have been that many drastic/amazing changes done to it.  I was fairly ignorant of them until the new codex came out, when a lot of my friends in NJ were raving about it, but from what I surmise about it is that a lot of Elites, HQ's, and Heavy Support choices switched roles, and were modified differently to accommodate certain flavorful lists.  When my friend started going on and on about a few units, I made it a point to ask which category they fell under on the Organization Chart, and the majority of them fell under Elites or HQ's.  So before worrying about all this uber crap he was going to bring, I did the math, and realized that it's impossible for him to field that many Elite and HQ choices.  And therefore, nothing left to worry about.

As for the units that I do know of, the Trigon, the Doom of Malintide (spelling?), and the Monstrous Creature that acts as a "Drop Pod" are the only units I've seen out of the new codex in a game, and this is my analysis.  The Trigon, while it can deep strike, should start the game on the board.  If it deep strikes, then you run the risk of it mishapping or just not getting to come out in time when you need it (This happened in one of the games I played, and as it turned out, it didn't come into the game until Turn 4, and by then his Hive Tyrants were dead, along with all of his other elite choices, making it the only target 2/3 of my army had to shoot at.  It never got to assault, as a result of that).

As for the latter two, they were much more effective in combat.  Only downside to either of them is that they are susceptible to Instant Death.

So all in all, I don't think that it's as "broken" as some people said it would be; just different, with a few adjustments.  Being that I don't play Tyranids, it's hard for me to truly assess the codex, but as a person who's played against the old and the new one, I don't see many daunting differences.

[Matt Thomas]

But onto the Tyranid Codex, I don't think that there have been that many drastic/amazing changes done to it....
...and realized that it's impossible for him to field that many Elite and HQ choices.  And therefore, nothing left to worry about.

I think that depends upon your definition of drastic and how closely you look. The 'amazing' stuff is all in the new units/models/characters.

As for the force org... one of the most blatantly powerful options the Tervigon can be taken as a troops choice if you grab some gaunts... which you will take anyway because the troop options are so limited.

Sure you can't take every amazing new thing. That is true for any codex. But there are some very powerful combinations that can fit together on a list.

If you want to use a lot of deep strikers like the Trygon (or it's variants), Raveners, etc. you can stack your list to give you a plus on the reserve rolls. And some of the stuff pretty much avoids mishaps.

[blantyr]

So all in all, I don't think that it's as "broken" as some people said it would be; just different, with a few adjustments.  Being that I don't play Tyranids, it's hard for me to truly assess the codex, but as a person who's played against the old and the new one, I don't see many daunting differences.

I kind of expect with any new codex for many players of the new army to grumble about being shafted, while opposition players might be muttering about codex creep.  It might take several months for the Bug players to figure out the best new tricks while the opposition learns to counter them.  Only then will a real opinion be very meaningful.

[Matt Thomas]

I kind of expect with any new codex for many players of the new army to grumble about being shafted, while opposition players might be muttering about codex creep.  It might take several months for the Bug players to figure out the best new tricks while the opposition learns to counter them.  Only then will a real opinion be very meaningful.

Wow you summarized almost the exact OPPOSITE of the discussion we just had.