Apocalypse Megabattle 2010 Rules, Questions, etc.

[Chase]

That is what Apoc is about, not "well i want to handicap a side from taking bigger things from last year because the winning side doesnt feel as though it could be fair"

This does not in any way shape or form represent what Chase said in his post, or what we have been saying regarding the event.

Rick over stated things as he has a tendency to do but I think you might want to consider more where that impression may have come from.
You have openly admitted to actively carebearing.
You have stated that you intend to alter the standard rules with the explicit intention of increasing the relative value of 'small stuff' over "bigger things".
And it is clear to everyone that your concerns are about one particular side and we all know who chase was talking to in his post as far as people essentially 'over optimizing' their lists and making the other team feel like they don't have a chance.  

This does not make your position in any way automatically wrong (arguments can be made for all of those positions). But I don't think it is fair to pretend Rick's statement bore no relationship to reality.

His impression has come from the fact that he thinks we are going to heavily weight some sort of scoring system towards one side vs. the other.  This is incorrect and is basically an impossibility.  What has been discussed at length is how we might build a system that takes the focus away from super heavy models in terms of scoring.  This favors or handicaps no one prior to the event.

It can (and has) been referred to as "carebearing".  In realty it's just taking steps towards what we think would ultimately create for better gameplay overall.  This "carebearing" was something that would need to happen if we were going to keep things in line and fun for everyone.  That's a fact and I'm pretty sure no one disagrees.  Please keep in mind that nothing can be actively done unless it is done... Nothing has been done yet.

Our intent was most certainly to alter the scoring "rules" (which were apparently extrapolated from something that has nothing to do with scoring, btw... which is a VERY important thing to consider) such that troops / infantry / whatever were more valuable in terms of scoring than anything else.

Yes, the concerns are about one particular side or most specifically, one particular table.  Based on what we've heard, those concerns are most definitely justified.  I wasn't speaking about a person in particular but more of a general mentality that seems to be emanating from more than a handful of players.

Rick's statement doesn't have any relationship to reality because his stance is against "what might have been" not what was covered by what I wrote in any respect.  I didn't mention, refer to, or elude to scoring at all.  I spoke towards the "bigger picture".  


Derek and I had a short conversation last night about the importance of micro-managing the event.  We decided that heavy micro-management ultimately accomplishes nothing based on factors that are not obvious to people playing in the game.  We've decided to change few things (vs. many) and add an element that we think allows each player to play around.  The people that want 1/10/30 scoring won't be disappointed.

We also had a different conversation regarding the purpose of the event, what we want out of it, the problems we've seen in the past, and the problems we think we see now.  The result, my reaction, was to post what I did.

Again, we want all players to have fun with whatever they bring and we want all players to have fun with whatever they fight.  If you think that someone will not have ANY fun fighting what you've got, we'd like you to consider the event as a whole before showing up with it.

[the_trooper]

I won't have fun being pitted against a Frisbee.

[General Leevous]

Ugh! Who cares, everyone is making such a mountain out of a molehill! Its not that bad at all! Jeez if people are gonna be wimps, quit! I don't see the point in nerfing your army so pansy mcgee can stand a chance. I for one am looking to absolutely crush my opponent cuz its my nature, will it happen? Probabally not but its the nature of the game. If you are a sore loser, quit now. That's my oppinion at least. I would feel excellent having someone try to put me in my place for once! But apparently noone else shares my enthusiasm...

[blantyr]

Since it's air out all grievances thread, I'll go ahead and stop beating around the bush.

A good deal of your grievances seem directed at me.  I'd like to make a few comments.

The "Frisbee" model is a plastic kit of similar quality, detailing and part count to GW models.  The price was a bit less than GW would sell it for, but it would take considerable effort to find models priced as high as GW.  The primary armament is twin WYSIWYG long barreled D-Cannons.  The secondary is a WYSIWYG bright lance.  I'm no Golden Demon winner, but I paint to a respectable standard, and I put as much care into painting that model as any of my other vehicles.  The model was built for the Vehicle Design Rules, and was intended to be played WYSIWYG.  It was built long before Apocalypse was dreamed of.  I want to put it on the table.  There are no Apocalypse data sheets for a twin long barreled D-Cannon super-heavy, so I chose a standard Eldar data sheet that was as close as I could get.  This seems a better alternative than trying to create my own data sheet.

I was advised I should more clearly identify the rear facing by another Order player.  I intend to highlight a pair of lines that were molded into the model at the factory.  These lines identified the rear quarter last year.  The armor is 12 12 11, so the front/side divide lines will not be highlighted.

The KFC bucket and toilet paper orbital defense laser has been properly insulted and banned.  The four lampshade stompas I faced last year were not, and properly so.  Considerable effort has gone into many of the scratch builds we've seen in the past, and will see in the future.  I don't think that only those who can afford Forgeworld prices ought to be placing big models.  Expect to see more scratch builds this year, though I have constructed none myself.  I believe scratch builds should be welcomed as single models.  I am concerned with the construction of a large number of the same model, whether they be GW, FW or scratch build.  One of anything I believe should be fine.  3000 points worth of many copies of the same model is apt to be a problem.  Anyone doing that is likely trying to create a mismatch, is likely power gaming.

I believe my model is well above the KFC bucket and toilet paper standard.  The rumor I've heard is that a bunch of people on the Chaos side don't like the model, and are going to blow it away at first opportunity.  This is the sort of attitude I'm expecting from the Chaos side just now.

I'll add that I've never seriously considered playing the Ladies of the Night in the mega battle.  Their fluff suggests that they should avoid such events.  They use chaos powers too much.  The presence of their male brothers would too much stress their discipline and control, while the Imperials wouldn't trust them as allies.  They are not missing because they don't match GW's fluff, but because of their own fluff.

I prefer to paint female figures.  Maybe I'm crazy, or maybe everyone else is.  I suspect the latter.  Anyway, I've put a lot more work into the Lady's fluff than those who follow the GW story line blindly, and I suspect I've had more fun in the process.  We have different ideas on how people might have fun with the game.  Let's leave it at that.  I'm not going out of my way to diss your army.  In fact, I've used armies on my own side as examples of possible problems rather than going after opposing players.  I'd  appreciate a similar courtesy.

[Matt Thomas]

Again, we want all players to have fun with whatever they bring and we want all players to have fun with whatever they fight.  If you think that someone will not have ANY fun fighting what you've got, we'd like you to consider the event as a whole before showing up with it.

Chase you can't please everyone. Some people would LOVE to be pitted against Rob's titans or worse because they think it would be totally cool and they want to work out how to face a variety of hard stuff with their friends.
Other people are going to moan about how unfair it is for them to face an all titan force and how they can't do anything to them and would have no fun at all.

So will people have "ANY fun" fighting an all titan force? There is no one right answer.
Is a well organized group of players isolated on a single table fun to play against? Same answer. Depends upon who you ask.

So who should I ask if my stuff won't be 'any fun' to play against? What if it interacts with someone eles stuff? If I loose do I get to b1tch that my opponent brought things that weren't 'any fun' even though you 'told them not to'?

You can NOT please everyone. I know you want to. And I think it is great that you do. But it is impossible.

[Matt Thomas]

Please keep in mind that nothing can be actively done unless it is done... Nothing has been done yet.

Yes it has. Asking people to bring a particular kind of force and to leave another at home is just as active as making a rule. It is not as cut and dry but you are clearly broadcasting a message (yes I hear it) and that is active.

[blantyr]

Both you and derek mentioned in the store that you wanted to see the moon table be a place where the competitive players in the store go to duke it out.  With your long "mom" post you are contradicting everything you said you guys hoped for.

It seems that Chase and Derek have decided not to micro manage the battle.  I don't think we can expect them to mandate that the competitive players head for the moon.  I do think it would be a good idea.  Make the moon a gloves off, no holds barred, no whining table.  I'm sure we can find ten players who would take up the challenge.  The survivor would certainly have boasting rights, assuming anyone survives.

But I don't think Chase and Derek are going to mandate it.  It would be up to the two sides to find their five most macho gung ho extremists.  I'd kind of like to see what happens.  I'm concerned that extreme gaming might get too off the wall to be fun.  Perhaps you might want to find ten people who could prove me wrong.

And, no, I'm not eager to be one of the ten.  Who was it that said, "Let's you and him fight!"?

[Matt Thomas]

Bob AFAIK getting 5 from each side IS the problem right now. Too many people going 'let's you and him fight'.
If there were 10 players all on the same page about what was going to be fun I don't think you would see one iota of concern from Chase and Derrek. They are quite legitimately worried about people who are NOT those 5 people getting pitted against those who ARE.
This can be seen in the lack of concern over who will be on the cavern table. The rules are restrictive enough that the *impression* is that nobody can break it wide open and 'make' someone else not have fun.

So I guess the simple direct question is do you have 5 order players who want (not just can, but want) to play that kind of pre-planned let's break it wide open game of 40k?

[blantyr]

Bob AFAIK getting 5 from each side IS the problem right now. Too many people going 'let's you and him fight'.
If there were 10 players all on the same page about what was going to be fun I don't think you would see one iota of concern from Chase and Derrek. They are quite legitimately worried about people who are NOT those 5 people getting pitted against those who ARE.
This can be seen in the lack of concern over who will be on the cavern table. The rules are restrictive enough that the *impression* is that nobody can break it wide open and 'make' someone else not have fun.

So I guess the simple direct question is do you have 5 order players who want (not just can, but want) to play that kind of pre-planned let's break it wide open game of 40k?

I can't speak for my fellow order players, but over on the Order forum there seems to be movement in that direction. Two recently non-lunar players want on the moon in response to taunting from Chaos players.  I generously yielded my lunar slot.  (Aren't I nice?)

What say, Order players?   Do we have five who want to play just for fun, and who think fun is doing one's best against the enemy's best?

I believe Derek and Chase are quite correct in asking players to field armies that are fun to play against.  It's just that some people have different ideas of what is fun.  It would be nice to get similar sorts of players together.   Are all the gung ho crazies really drawn to play Chaos?