Apocalypse Megabattle 2010 Rules, Questions, etc.

[jesterofthedark]

Chase is right. 

Have no fear.  But, you might wanna bring that safety helmet of yours, you know the one they make you wear when you eat soup.  Better safe than sorry.

[blantyr]

Chase is right. 

Have no fear.  But, you might wanna bring that safety helmet of yours, you know the one they make you wear when you eat soup.  Better safe than sorry.

OK, I have a reputation.  I'm not confident that the current arms race is going to lead to a fun game.  I don't know that I'm the only one with concerns.  In last Thursday's grumble fest, there was mention made that someone on Order side might field an all terminator army.  Someone mentioned a all Titan army.  Someone thought that Careful Planning was an unbalancing stratagem, that super-heavies should by rule be forced to start the game on the table.  Concern was expressed that every marine army might choose to flank march, or to carry a void grenade.

So I'm not alone in thinking Apocalypse might get out of hand.

Last year, four stompas lined up opposite my force.  I was on an outside flank table.  I got lots of help.  It turned out Paul was screwed worse than me, but this year we have straight tables.   Does every army have to be prepared to meet massed gargantuans?

I've heard rumors of massed doomsday machines on the moon.  Sure, one or two are fun, but do we really want to game out Cold War mutual assured destruction?

I've never liked extreme armies.  I didn't like rhino rush in the early V3 days.  I didn't like the pure stand and shoot guard of the early V3 days.  Armies that can do one thing well but only that one thing can be devastating given the right opposition, terrain and scenario.  They can be helpless given the wrong opposition, terrain and scenario.  I think it wise and prudent that GW has given the Imperial Guard more options than stand and shoot, while toning down what a marine player might do with six rhinos full of melee specialist.

To my mind, Apocalypse is supposed to be safeties off.  Composition, force organization and similar governing mechanism that prevent highly specialized one trick armies have been removed.  Thus, people are free to build and field extreme armies that do one thing well, that will overwhelm and crush a balanced and versatile opposition force.

And we do have players fielding balanced forces.  We also have straight tables, so to some extent we will be playing 20 one on one games.  We also have a scenario that is known in advance, with heavy lobbying going on to alter the scenario to favor one side or the other.

I suggested that the problem might be some players overloading on big models in an environment where not all players are ready to face them.  I suggested there might be prudent limits set on the amount of points any given player might put into the big models.

The response was that the mega battle should be the once a year opportunity for players to pull out those favorite models that one never gets a chance to play.  BG does not want to start restricting what big models might be put on the table.

I can sympathize.  A long time ago, at a game store far far away, when my Eldar were the only force I owned, I encountered the Vehicle Design Rules.  I went out and bought kits sufficient to build five models, two of which were super-heavies, four of which were flyers.  I'd kind of like to put them down once in a while.  I would understand, however, if I was told I couldn't put all of them down at once.

But it is one thing to want an opportunity to dust off an old model.  It is another thing to start building a ton of new models, all similar in style and effect, with the intent to present someone on the other side of the table with a problem most armies cannot solve.  The former is understandable.  The latter is being an (expletive deleted.)

Some things can be done to reduce the effect of one trick pony armies.  If someone is fielding many titans, they can be spread out so that no one player has to face off against all four.  If many armies can't cope with an all terminator force, there are some that would find it an interesting challenge.  The game referees might arrange that one trick pony armies face off against opponents that can give them an interesting fight.  Four stompas, for example.

If such moves might be made to keep the extreme armies fun, I'd like to see it.  It is neat to see all Rob's titans wandering around the table, or even standing with their heels against the back table edge.  If I had that many terminators, I'd want an excuse to field the en mass too.  However, the response seems to be "If They are doing That, we are justified in doing This."  At a war of ideas level, how does one allow neat model collections to be fielded while avoiding power gamers attempting to create implausible mismatches and stuff them in peoples faces. 

I can tell the difference easily, of course.  The people with neat model collections are all on the Order side, while the heartless egotistical power gamers are drawn to play Chaos.

Though I'm not sure my view is entirely objective.   

[the_trooper]

I can tell the difference easily, of course.  The people with neat model collections are all on the Order side, while the heartless egotistical power gamers are drawn to play Chaos.

Though I'm not sure my view is entirely objective.   

While we are the better looking and smarter team, we aren't all powergamers.  Would'ja care to continue the bed wetting before your obvious demise?

[Chase]

Some progress has been made on the scoring method front.  It'll be posted over the next couple days.

I'm pretty sure it's something that everyone will find interesting, fair, and fun.  I also think people will be pleased with the choices we've made.


With respect to army design, etc. Derek and I hope that people will build cool and/or appropriate armies that players can both enjoy playing and enjoy playing against.  In fact it's paramount to us.

We feel as though the players are aware of this.

[General Leevous]

If anyone has any problems with someone elses army, you came into this fight knowing the possibilities of what people were bringing. Example being my plague tower in the playtest, I spent 700 points on something that literally died before I did anything with it. Was I mad? Yes, but that's the nature of the game and I still had fun playing. So if you're gonna bitch and moan about another force, don't play! If rob sends 5 titans my way, I just look at it as only 5 models to kill. If murph brings all termies, who cares, that's why you have allies to help out where you are weak.

All in all, stop crying about losing. If you don't think you're gonna have fun, quit. Like derek said before last years battle started, expect to lose everything you field! If you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

[Chase]

OK, I have a reputation.  I'm not confident that the current arms race is going to lead to a fun game.  I don't know that I'm the only one with concerns.  In last Thursday's grumble fest, there was mention made that someone on Order side might field an all terminator army.  Someone mentioned a all Titan army.  Someone thought that Careful Planning was an unbalancing stratagem, that super-heavies should by rule be forced to start the game on the table.  Concern was expressed that every marine army might choose to flank march, or to carry a void grenade.

...

Thanks for this, Bob.  It is well written and the ideas presented are not really incorrect or off base.  You've stated several points very well.

Sadly, it boils down to a situation where Derek and I have to make a choice.  The choice is simply how much we want to micro-manage the event.  It's impossible to please everyone.  For each person that's happy with one thing there's going to be someone else who isn't 100% satisfied.  Such is life I suppose.




I think the message we've sent over the past few years is pretty clear.  We want an event where everyone can walk away saying that they had a great time, blew stuff up, had fun with their fellow gamers, laughed, and had a positive 40k experience they aren't likely to forget.

We want an event that is talked about and praised all year.  It's as simple as that.  Many steps have been taken to make this years Megabattle the biggest and best yet.

A lot of time and effort goes into organizing, coordinating, and building everything for the event on our end.  We just ask that the players be responsible and respect our intentions for the Megabattle.  This is not at all to say, "don't bring cool or extremely powerful stuff" but we do expect that you, as the individual and as a team, strongly consider the spirit of the event.


If you are the type of person who's super into thinking everything through for months, coming up with the best possible course of action for yourself and your team, designing the perfect army list that is just about unkillable and is sure to lay your opponent to waste with the quickness, then great.  When I play games I'm the same exact way.  I know exactly where you're coming from and exactly how much enjoyment can be had through it all.  The thing is... this really isn't the event for that.  

Nothing is less satisfying than being extremely confident in a list, deck, strategy, plan, team, situation, or any combination of all that and then matching up against someone or some people that simply had no idea what was going to happen, were completely mismatched, and stood no chance.  I've been the guy dishing that stuff out... it sucks, it feels wasteful, it feels awful, and it definitely isn't any fun.  If you're this type of person you've almost certainly been there too.  You probably know exactly what I'm talking about.  

We've also all been on the receiving end of something like this at one point in our gaming careers...  It just simply isn't any fun for anyone.  The guy kicking ass isn't happy.  The guy getting his ass kicked isn't happy.  It just isn't a great situation.

The thing about it is...  if it happens at the Megabattle... one bad mood, any bad blood, one bad attitude, or whatever else emerges it effects the "vibe" of the ENTIRE event.  It's plain to see and infects the entire room.  I'd REALLY like to avoid that, if you catch my drift.

Powerful and effective comes in many different shapes, sizes, and scales.  If you're bringing the Heat, work with us and not against us please.


When building your list just use your best judgement.  If you think that it's very likely the guy across from you is going to go home 2 hours into the event pissed off, there was probably something wrong... and it probably wasn't what he took.


Losing your entire army is going to happen but the way in which it happens tends to sit one way or another with a person based on how everything goes down, you know?  Getting smoked by 5 titans before you even get to move your stuff sucks, a lot.  Your own "big thing" blowing up to a random laz cannon or multi-melta shot and wiping out your entire army is something entirely different.




One last thing and then "mom" will go to bed...

We are just under 2 months away from the event and already there has been a lot of smack talking.  Most of it is fine, fun, goofy, sarcastic, and all that, which is fine, expected, and almost encouraged so long as it remains kind hearted.  Some of it, however, is probably a little too pointed and a little too much.  It's plain to see that the mood has shifted towards a "my side vs. your side" type of feel.  That's not good.  This game is for fun, it is definitely not something that should fuel any animosity towards players, groups, "tables", or teams.  

Let's have fun with it.  It's probably in everyones best interest to not take it all so seriously.


Let's keep this all in mind.

[Moosifer]

Here is my idea on a scoring system.  Flip a coin at the beginning of the day and declare the winner, then let everyone beat the crap out of each other with their armies not worrying about the point system at all.  Both you and derek mentioned in the store that you wanted to see the moon table be a place where the competitive players in the store go to duke it out.  With your long "mom" post you are contradicting everything you said you guys hoped for.  You want to make this event the biggest and best ever, and I think that it can be, but you are pretty much telling some folks that their idea of fun (building lists, planning out things) is not what is neccessary.

You say you dont want bad blood, hurt feelings, etc.. then dont have a scoring system period and play for the stories.  People can talk about how their command squad took down a titan or how my baneblade went apocolypic while in the enemy lines wiping out an entire marine unit.  That is what Apoc is about, not "well i want to handicap a side from taking bigger things from last year because the winning side doesnt feel as though it could be fair"

Bob, I really am trying to hold my tongue on this, but your post warranted this response.

You talk about people worried about a list of things.

Someone fielding an all terminator Army - Murph
Someone fielding an all Titan Army - Rob Sims
Someone fielding a titan army that comes in reserve either with careful planning or just plain reserves - Rob Sims

Your reasoning behind your "lawl I wanna sit back and shoot" post is flawed.  The concerns that were raised were NOT theorheticals but actually what will/has happened.  You mentioned that you had help last year, which is the ENTIRE point of being on a team.  This is not golf where you play 18 holes by yourself, but football where you have 10 other teammates supporting you. 

Now that it is out of my system, gl hf eat babies...

[General Leevous]

I agree with rick 100 percent with this comment and what I was trying to get at with mine. Why should anyone cater to the needs of the opponent. If you want a stand and shoot game, why are we then forced to just eat your fire? That's why flankmarch and deepstrike and outflank are in the game. Everyone thinks too much on the rules as to how can we butcher the game to be "fair" and not to just have fun. My thoughts are just to stick with the book and say screw the tweaking.

And my thoughts on army composition are as follows... bring whatever you want, if you feel like you are gonna get your ass handed to you by a specific person, don't field in front of them. Its not like either team is gonna put their strong players against shit bums anyway so there shouldn't be a problem with it. Were all just ruining the spirit of the game by tweaking the rules to nerf the big players. That's what teamwork is for. I'm sure will help you out by softening up the opposition with titan fire if it looks grim on your table.

Just remember, its not you against 20 other people. I've been talking strategy with the people I'm going to be next to at the battle for weeks now as to how one of us will make up for where the other lacks. Its what I did with chris at the doubles tourney and it worked out great. This is why the order and disorder forums are up, so you can talk strategy.

If this post made no sense its because I literally just woke up when I wrote this 

[Battleground]

That is what Apoc is about, not "well i want to handicap a side from taking bigger things from last year because the winning side doesnt feel as though it could be fair"

This does not in any way shape or form represent what Chase said in his post, or what we have been saying regarding the event.

[blantyr]

Here is my idea on a scoring system.  Flip a coin at the beginning of the day and declare the winner, then let everyone beat the crap out of each other with their armies not worrying about the point system at all.  Both you and derek mentioned in the store that you wanted to see the moon table be a place where the competitive players in the store go to duke it out.  With your long "mom" post you are contradicting everything you said you guys hoped for.  You want to make this event the biggest and best ever, and I think that it can be, but you are pretty much telling some folks that their idea of fun (building lists, planning out things) is not what is necessary.

You say you don't want bad blood, hurt feelings, etc.. then don't have a scoring system period and play for the stories.  People can talk about how their command squad took down a titan or how my baneblade went apocalyptic while in the enemy lines wiping out an entire marine unit.  That is what Apoc is about, not "well i want to handicap a side from taking bigger things from last year because the winning side doesn't feel as though it could be fair"

Rather than a coin flip, I proposed that the side who had the most fun should win.  At the end of the game, each side in turn would be asked if they had fun.  We could find a decibel meter. 

Bob, I really am trying to hold my tongue on this, but your post warranted this response.

You talk about people worried about a list of things.

Someone fielding an all terminator Army - Murph
Someone fielding an all Titan Army - Rob Sims
Someone fielding a titan army that comes in reserve either with careful planning or just plain reserves - Rob Sims

Your reasoning behind your "lawl I wanna sit back and shoot" post is flawed.  The concerns that were raised were NOT theoreticals but actually what will/has happened.  You mentioned that you had help last year, which is the ENTIRE point of being on a team.  This is not golf where you play 18 holes by yourself, but football where you have 10 other teammates supporting you. 

Now that it is out of my system, gl hf eat babies...

I wasn't interested in pointing fingers and naming names.  I just wanted to illustrate that I wasn't the only one with concerns.  The concerns Order has are not theoreticals either.

Last year I was on the outside of a flank table.  Paul's four stompas ended up facing off against five opposition armies.  With this year's linear table set up, nobody is going to get that much help .  I lost most of my army to an apocalyptic explosion.  I lost my "big thing" to a strength 8 missile shot from outer nowhere, where my opponent managed to roll three chain reaction damage results in a row.  Neither of those things were particularly fun at the time, but that's the sort of thing you remember forever.  I'm not going to forget last year's mega battle.  I think one object of such battles is to create memories, and last year the dice created some doozies.

But I didn't have the right stuff to match up against the guy on the other side of the table.  Getting clobbered memories are nice, but the chance to do a little clobbering would be nice too.  Fortunately, my fighters got a little shot at glory in the end, playing a role in the last turn victory.

I do like the idea of different styles of play or levels of escalation on different tables.  The caverns might be for those without a ton of exotic models, as many types of such models are banned.  The moon might be designated as a no whining zone.  There are players on both side who are enthused by gloves off no holds barred.  Send them to the moon.  This might leave the big table for players with more moderate forces. 

I am trying to make constructive suggestions so that the players opposing each other across the table are paired to make for an interesting fight.  The response I'm getting seems like a glorification of the extreme army, where creating an uninteresting fight is the goal.  I note that last year the Order players were assigned deployment zones before we knew who was going to be where on the other side.  There was no opportunity to switch deployment zones at the last moment to create interesting fights.  Might players with exotic one trick pony forces, lots of big models and much bravado be interested in letting the other side know where they intend to deploy?  Do we want to put the iron against the iron, or is it the goal to create mismatches?

While I strongly believe the game should be set up so that stand-and-shoot tactics can be effective,  this year I'm not intending to do stand and shoot.  My current list features a strong dash of kamikaze.  I'm likely to die again, it seems nigh on certain, but I hope to create some memories in the process.

[the_trooper]

Since it's air out all grievances thread, I'll go ahead and stop beating around the bush.

On the topic of the megabattles:
First year from administrative stand point was fun.  Players were pretty self regulating for the most part which led to epic battles and fun times.  There was some issues in so far as people not knowing their rules out of ignorance of malice, on that it is unsure but that did put a drag on things.  People suppressed the bad feelings and it did turn out to be a really  fun event.

Second year saw the evolution of the carebearing.  Rules were changed mid game which made for a bad gaming experience.  Again in the second year, people had problems with remembering the rules properly.  It made for some obnoxious moves that were only called out by people of the opposing team.  There was lots of whining at this second megabattle which clearly did put a damper on things as far as overall enjoyment. 

On the topic of theme:
I will say theme and fluff are in the eyes of the beholder but there are some things that are universal.

Rob's titan legion- Legio Ignatium (sp) is pretty rad.  It's in theme and pretty powerful.  I also can't wait to see even more awesome Death Korp manliness on the table.  Whole companies of Ultramarines which will be just beautiful and there are a couple of others which are taking theme to an awesome level. 

There are those, however, who twist theme and apoc rules to allow for non-thematic armies.  Sure, apocalypse armies allow for space marines to ally with guard and by extension all their superheavies but how is it thematic to have a space marine player take a baneblade?  How is it thematic to take toys-r-us specials, paint them a different color with no modification done to them and call them a 40k model?  How is it thematic to have female space marines?  We are talking about a thematic battle but we will allow the most fluff-egregious stuff to happen. Frisbees are not FW models, so don't insult those who when to that level of quality with terrible scratch builds.  I kept hearing poor arguments against traitor guard when people attempting to field FW rules with Frisbees and other 2 dollar toys with bad paint jobs were acceptable by the same team?

I wanted a smaller force this year because of the chaos of the other years.  I wanted something more manageable than a whole army of berserkers, daemons and one big daemon.  It gets tiresome to deal with rules issues while pushing around so many models.  I wanted to have fun.  So I decide to change my army a bit and continue to talk of the same impending doom that is every year.   At this point I get called out as being against theme and against fluff where there are others making poor scratch builds to justify the ability to field a powerful rules set.

I guess me meticulously building the Dies Irae / Legio Mortis is too much for people.

My proposed fix?  Setup a 5th table full of trenches and have it for Paul and I to duke it out DKoK vs. Vraksian Renegades.

[Chase]

Here is my idea on a scoring system.  Flip a coin at the beginning of the day and declare the winner, then let everyone beat the crap out of each other with their armies not worrying about the point system at all.  Both you and derek mentioned in the store that you wanted to see the moon table be a place where the competitive players in the store go to duke it out.  With your long "mom" post you are contradicting everything you said you guys hoped for.  You want to make this event the biggest and best ever, and I think that it can be, but you are pretty much telling some folks that their idea of fun (building lists, planning out things) is not what is neccessary.

You say you dont want bad blood, hurt feelings, etc.. then dont have a scoring system period and play for the stories.  People can talk about how their command squad took down a titan or how my baneblade went apocolypic while in the enemy lines wiping out an entire marine unit.  That is what Apoc is about, not "well i want to handicap a side from taking bigger things from last year because the winning side doesnt feel as though it could be fair"

Interesting response.  I suggest you reread what I wrote.

[Battleground]

I've been thinking about building a Plague Tower made out of my 1981 Kenner Toy Death Star Playset. What do you guys think about that? The canon is pretty sweet and when someone destroys it I can press this little button on the side that makes it pop off like it was exploded. Even cooler, it comes complete with a trash compactor with a dianoga monster (which I think is very appropriate for a Nurgle army).

Here's the stat line for the dianoga:

WS BS S T W I A LD Sv Pts
8   6    6 3 9 4 4 10  2+ 200

The canon fires the equivilent of 8 vortex grenades on its turn

I think this is totally fair.

[Matt Thomas]

That is what Apoc is about, not "well i want to handicap a side from taking bigger things from last year because the winning side doesnt feel as though it could be fair"

This does not in any way shape or form represent what Chase said in his post, or what we have been saying regarding the event.

Rick over stated things as he has a tendency to do but I think you might want to consider more where that impression may have come from.
You have openly admitted to actively carebearing.
You have stated that you intend to alter the standard rules with the explicit intention of increasing the relative value of 'small stuff' over "bigger things".
And it is clear to everyone that your concerns are about one particular side and we all know who chase was talking to in his post as far as people essentially 'over optimizing' their lists and making the other team feel like they don't have a chance.  

This does not make your position in any way automatically wrong (arguments can be made for all of those positions). But I don't think it is fair to pretend Rick's statement bore no relationship to reality.

[Battleground]

This does not make your position in any way automatically wrong (arguments can be made for all of those positions). But I don't think it is fair to pretend Rick's statement bore no relationship to reality.

How we are choosing to score the game in order to make it fun for EVERYONE (apparently this is considered "carebearing") is entirely different from our request that people field an army that is not only fun to play, but also fun to play against.

To do otherwise, is to play against the spirit of the Megabattle.

This is why I felt that Rick's response did not represent Chase's post.