Optimizing a List

[Loranus]

Searched through the forums for a previous thread but I had a question about how people Optimize their Army Lists for 40k. I was looking over Benshin's 2500 Point Salamander List for the Ard Boyz Tournament (Thank You Again for that). And Was wondering the process people go through to develop those lists. Do you guys start with a Solid Core idea and Trial and Error in matches to see your strengths and weaknesses to modify it or is there some other concept you put into play using research and math to come up with your lists?

[Benjamin]

Different players, different methods.

Plan For Your Enemy.
When I sit down and think of opponents, my first thought is of mech spam. If you can't pop 10 Rhinos and Chimeras over 5 turns, you will have many painful games. I think that's a good initial standard to measure your lists. There are many types of lists of course, but that's a good enough place to start.

Pick Your Awesome.
How will you achieve your goals? For example, I built my 2000 Daemon list to try maximizing assault. Your list will be stronger if you focus on shooting or assault, because you'll be superior over your enemy in that one category. Your list will be more flexible if you balance between the two. With Salamanders, shooting is the clear preference.

The Hard Part.
From there, the process for me (and most, I imagine) is repeated trial and error. With more experience, less trial and error is needed to identify deficiencies. In other words, the process gets easier. Tweak as appropriate. You got rolled by an horde list? Need a couple more flamers.

Using Numbers.
Some people break down their lists and write out comparisons to previous versions. Have you fit in more models, more weapons? Side-by-side, hard numbers, pros and cons.

[Bill]

Ben hits the nail pretty good here. I would just add a couple really important things. The first is u want a list to make target priority difficult and this extends into your play style. Look at the army on paper and on the table and think to urself what your opponent would shoot first, if the decision is easy u have some thinking to do unless the other choices are just as nasty. This is why spam lists are tough to deal with.

The other thing I just want to reinforce is practicing with a list. If u do constant overhauls of a list than it will never be competitive even if the list has won gt's. Pick a list and make some tweaks here and there but get table time. Any list can do well just need practice.

One more thing; take everything on the interwebs w a grain of salt. I hate it when I hear people says thy something sucks because they read it on the Internet. My greatest example of this is warp spiders; the Internet. Table time and come to your own conclusions. Including what I am typing now.

[Ed]

i roll alot of dice on my floor in my home with trial and error i guess
it like my unit is shoting in to cover on marines guard bugs eldar to see what happens i do it over and over until i feel that happens i do the same with for cc units and tanks

[canadianone]

I agree, Ben's advice was pretty solid. Ill give an example of my 2500 point list that has done very well and that i would consider optimized, or at least as optimized as anything i have written up.


-Hive Tyrant
bone sword/ lash whip, talons
armored shell, old adversary
paroxysm, life leech
-3x tyrant guard
boneswords

-Swarmlord
-3x tyrant guard
boneswords

-3x hive guard

-3x hive guard

-2x hive guard

-11x termagaunts
fleshborers

-11x termagaunts
fleshborers

-tervigon
catalyst, cluster spines

-tervigon
catalyst, cluster spines

-7x genestealers
poison
-broodlord
poison, talons

-trygon

-trygon

-2x biovores


This list uses several list building principles. The main idea behind this list is target saturation. I have more T6 wounds than any other toughness, 51 wounds in fact. That means that, against the real work horses of my army, most enemy infantry weapons like bolters and las guns are almost completely useless. The only weapons most of my army fears are low ap or S6 weapons with many shots. Now i have basically made a huge part of his army useless. Mech achieves the same thing, making large parts of the enemy force impotent, while overwhelming one aspect of the enemies army, in this case, taking too many vehicles for the enemies AT choice to deal with.


Another good idea to keep in mind while writing a list is to think about what you are going to face across the table, what are your army's weaknesses, how can you cope with your enemy. If he/she is running mech, do you have enough AT weapons to cope, if you are fighting against an infantry swarm, do you have the capability to kill enough of them fast enough? Take a look at my list. Tyranids are historically weak against armor, so i bulked out on AT units (hive guard). I also know that my list is very slow, and lacks significant ranged shooting, so i needed a way to take out backfield firing platforms like heavy weapons squads, devastator squads, artillery tanks, ergo an outflanking genestealer squad, and the reserve/ outflank bonus from the swarmlord. A list like mine is very vulnerable to AT fire, as it is relatively small, especially for tyranids at 2500, so i need to be able to close with shooting units and engage them fast, queue 2 trygons and gaunts that can deply 6 inches from the tervigons, move 6, and then assault 6. They wont kill much, but they can tie most units up in assault and prevent them from shooting. Finally, with few points left to spend, I realized i had little in my army that was going to be able to efficiently combat a swarm amy like green tide orks or tervigon spam tyranids, so i threw in some biovores and cluster spines on the tervigons. Now i have 4 large blasts a turn for crowd control. And again, always consider what your opponent is going to try to do to you, for instance, i know that is is popular to take large long fang squads with missile launchers. so, lets see what 18 missiles directed towards one of my death stars will do, 18 fired, 12 hit, 10 wounds. i put 2 on each model then sink an extra on the tyrant

T G G G    
 l  l  l  l
 l  l  l  l
 l  l


now because i use gaunt walls for cover saves, lets assume a 4+ as in almost all my games i can get a cover save for my deathstars.

on the tyrant itself, 3 wounds, .5 get past the 2+ armor save, then .25 after the FnP (from the tervigons). on the guards, 7 wounds, 3.5 get past the 4+ cover save, and then 1.75 after the FnP. I can easily afford that number of casualties a turn from 3 expensive shooting units.


The last bit of advice i have is to remember what the objective of the game is. 2/3 times it will be about scoring objectives, and rest will be about straight killing power. This means in most cases, a strong army will need either very tough troops (tervigons, wraith guard) or just very many troop choices (large ork mobs). And for kill points, you have to balance killing power against kill points you give up. Mech gaurd is very good at killing, but the abundance of lightly armored transport vehicles gives the opponent multiple opportunities to get easy kill points.


but bill is right, take everything i say with some hard rock salt, this is what has worked for me and my play style/ army, and it is not necessarily applicable to all armies/ play styles. Also, there is a very good chance im just an idiot and this i terrible advice =D, so think, play test, revise, and good luck! 

[Dissimulation]

In an attempt to make a list into the mythical "all-comers list" I try to spread out my points into a few categories. usually the categories consist of

-Anti light-infantry
-Anti vehicle (AV12 or lower)
-Anti tank (AV13 or higher)
-Anti Meq
-Mobility

After you play a few games you can see where the army is lacking, and then you can bolster the points for that certain category.

[Loranus]

Thanks a Lot guys for the responses they are helping out a lot in making a list Unfortunately I need to buy pieces to help finish it off .

[Chase]

Here's a 2000 point Salamanders list that I have reason to believe is very, very good.


Vulkan He'Stan                                                  [190]
Librarian: Null Zone, Gate of Infinity, combi-flamer    [115]

5 Assault Terminators: TH/SS  [200]
Dreadnought: twin-linked auto-cannon, twin-linked auto-cannon [125]

Troop 1:
10 Marines, meltagun (5), missile launcher (free), Sgt. with Power fist (25), combi-melta(10) [210]

Troop 2:
10 Marines, flamer (free), missile launcher(free), Sgt. with Power fist (25), combi-flamer(10) [205]

Troop 3:
10 Marines, flamer(free), missile launcher(free), combi-flamer(10) [180]

Fast Attack 1:
Land Speeder: (50) heavy bolter (free), typhoon missiles (40)  [90]
Fast Attack 2:
Land Speeder: (50) heavy bolter (free), typhoon missiles (40)  [90]
Fast Attack 3:
Attack Bike Squadron: 2 attack bikes with multi-meltas           [100]

Heavy Support 1:
Land Raider: extra armor (15), Multi-Melta (10) [275]
Heavy Support 2:
Thunderfire Cannon: [100]

Transport 1: Rhino(35)    dozer blade                           [40]
Transport 2: Rhino(35)    dozer blade                           [40]
Transport 3: Rhazorback, twin-heavy bolters [40]
2000

[Bill]

I see what u did there.

[Chase]

Don't tell anyone my secrets. 

[jhobin]

Looks familiar

[Grimwulfe]

Bad Chase!!   I can attest to this list being very versatile.  My only feedback is it takes alot of finesse to play it great.