Doubles event post Mortem

[Iacton Qruze]

Thanks for a very nice tourney Sat- as it happened 10 teams showed up for a pretty full house. Good day of gaming.

There was one intriguing, simple yet crucial, rule controversy that was never fully resolved. In an alliance - how many dice do you throw for the Winds of Magic? Is it 2 per team, or two per player?
This is  important, because if everybody is getting 12 dice for winds then you'd better bring a lot more magic defense than you would for the usual amount of dice. 

This one was amusing from a personal standpoint - we used two in the first game, then in the second our very knowledgeable opponents grabbed 4. We said 'What the heck...?' and asked. Turned out all 'in the know' were using 4, largely because that is the way it has been done at previous events, and a discussion arose. It was decided 4 was correct.

So in our third game our opponents went first, picked up 2 dice and said 'Seven- we get 7, you get 4.' And I smiled at my partner and said, ' Sounds about right to me....'   realize that they had already played 2 games with 2 dice earlier in the day, and the question had not come up for them.
So clearly there is a legitimate difference of interpretation.

[Rhys]

there is nothing in the allied rules or magic rules to suggest that the roll for the winds of magic is changed in an allied game. that said, there's nothing to the contrary either. so personally i think a team gets to split a pool of 2D6 power dice.

edit: p. 137 says if the alliance consists of trusted or suspicious allies, you can split the pool however you like. there's no reason to "split the pool" if both players roll their own dice so i think your interpretation is correct.

[keithb]

edit: p. 137 says if the alliance consists of trusted or suspicious allies, you can split the pool however you like. there's no reason to "split the pool" if both players roll their own dice so i think your interpretation is correct.
[/quote

Based on what?  The rules for Magic say Player generates,  well, my side has 2 players.

The rule for splitting is irrelevant to the discussion.  That is clear.   What needs to be figured out is how the pool is generated.  I was planning on looking into this today.

[Rhys]

Based on what?  The rules for Magic say Player generates,  well, my side has 2 players.

based on the fact that the rules for the magic section were written with only 2 players in mind, a casting player and a dispelling player. as for generating the pool, it says in bold that 2D6 dice are rolled to generate the magic pool. the paragraph underneath clarifies that of the 2 players, the casting player is the one who rolls the dice. you can interpet this as each casting player gets 2D6 dice, but if you interpet the letter of the rules this strictly, the dispel pool is only entitled to the highest D6. so by the strictest interpretation, (which you seem to favor) you're looking at casters getting 4D6 worth of dice and the dispel pool only getting the highest D6.

The rule for splitting is irrelevant to the discussion.  That is clear.   What needs to be figured out is how the pool is generated.  I was planning on looking into this today.

my point about splitting being thus- if each player generates his own pool of dice, wouldn't rules on who gets what be a bit superfluous?

[keithb]

So what do you do when it is 3 v. 3,   4 v 4?  2d6 for 4 players to split?   How does that work for armies that rely on magic?


Look, the big issue is really that this was not stated in the description of the event.   That will not happen a second time.

Point is, There are no rules as to how the dice are generated in team games, only how they are split. 

Either solution is fair.  I believe that the way we played it is truer to the spirit of the game.  It also holds more consistent as more players are added.

[Shadow76]

as the game is only 2 teams of 1500 pts thus being a 3k game. i would play 2d6 and split them.  if we were playing 3v3 and each person had 1k i would still do 2d6 and split.  if the game was more apocalypse and were 3v3 each army having 3k pts sure do 4d6 or more.  I agree in the future it just needs to be brought up in the rules set. IMO for this format of a total of 3K i would do 2d6.  if teclis got his hands on 4d6 wow oh wow.

[Bill]

Each person can still only have a max of 12 regardless of if the entire team rolls 2D6 or each player does. Teclis would never be able to get 4D6 worth of dice.

We cannot guess what GW intended so the bottom line is what Keith says; we will have to include whatever the house rule will be for doubles in future listings.

[Benjamin]

Would it be simpler for each player to generate his own pools?

[Rhys]

I agree with you keith that magic scales terribly whether the games increase in points or the number of players, I was just pointing out that trying to find a clear solution in the rules is futile. I agree with shadow that a game of 2 1500 pt teams should only have a pool of 2d6. At the end of the day though, it doesn't matter as long as its consistent. I am holding out a small measure of hope that storm of magic will offer a way to scale magic up in larger games

[Iacton Qruze]

I can only fan the flames a tad more by adding that at Adepticon in Chicago, where there were 72 teams (!) (If that sounds big, 40K had 244 gamers in the tourney) we used 2 dice per team, and the question never came up.
Granted that was 1000 pts per player rather than 1500.
Which was one reason why I said 'HUH?' yesterday. Understand my team had a sorceror Lord of Tzeentch plus a backup, so I am not feeling 'jobbed' here, it just seems like a major omission form the rules  if indeed it is controversial.
It is surprising because 'how things are played' in the GTs and such seems far more dependent on a group of influential hobby leaders, generally on the same page, than on the rules authors themselves, who at times seem detached from real life in the trenches. Which is almost certainly for the best.   

[Shadow76]

Well it looks like the horse is dead.......   So when is the next tournament?  Any leagues starting up?  escalation or the otherwise.  What about Mordheim? 

I am soo looking fwd to this expansion.  It almost seems like it is going to be like Apocalypse for fantasy.

[keithb]

A mordheim league would be very cool, not sure we have enough terrain for it though.

Probably a singles tournament in late july/august time frame.

[Chase]

We will try to get something in somewhere...  The schedule is pretty busy this summer, especially when you consider the larger events people like to travel to.

It's pretty tough to get something on there that doesn't conflict with something else at this point.

[keithb]

Honestly, Nova weekend would be a good weekend for a fantasy event.  I won't be here. But Jake/Josh and many others will.  Besides, Nova's Fantasy stuff is kind of an afterthought, you won't lose people for going down there for Fantasy.