Author Topic: Long convo with GW today.  (Read 16874 times)

Sir_Prometheus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1573
    • Email
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2014, 05:43:49 PM »
Quote
-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.

Quote
How is stuff like that encouraging?
  I really don't understand you people. 

robpro

  • Heroic Tier Level 9
  • **
  • Posts: 316
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2014, 06:37:53 PM »
Right back at you, bud.  8)

Cryptognomicon

  • Heroic Tier Level 2
  • **
  • Posts: 99
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2014, 06:40:37 PM »
Quote
-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.

Quote
How is stuff like that encouraging?
  I really don't understand you people.

Seriously dude. We all know your opinion. Please let us have ours without your constant negative comments.

Thanks

Mad Dok Rob

  • Paragon Tier Level 16
  • ***
  • Posts: 564
  • Da Orks are Da Best
    • http://fingerpaintingwitharchimedes.blogspot.com/
    • Email
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2014, 06:43:51 PM »
Also, apparently it reads a lot worse to people that aren't me than it should.  I actually thought it was a good, encouraging convo, for the most part.

eh, since I do not play Tau or Eldar, and knowing that GW does not care about balance...for me anyway, I do not think that is very encouraging.

Although, if as you forcasted, the Orks get a strong codex, I will be encouraged...but I am very pessimistic on that. 
http://fingerpaintingwitharchimedes.blogspot.com/

Warhammer 40k
6,914 pts Waaagh Dakkagut (Goff Orks)
4,913 pts Dark Angels 

Warmachine   
     183 pts Protectorate of Menoth

AstartesXXVI

  • Heroic Tier Level 4
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2014, 07:03:08 PM »
Not to sound rude or anything but seeing this thread makes me happy that I started a club designed from the ground up for people who just like this game, despite its' alleged faults. It allows us to stay focused on playing, and generally we ignore "GW the Company" and stay focused on 40k.

I found it to be an encouraging conversation as well, but I suppose that is a matter or perspective. I don't really buy that the game is super broken ZOMG unfair like many people do -- it is simply a matter of the players. Netlisting also tends to fail hard at our club, so few people bother; the other lists are off meta variants so people rarely encounter what the internet deems the omnipresent threats, so by extension the omnipresent counters to those threats don't work out well.

People looking to play, and people looking to win, will never agree on the state of the game.
"Really, the entire game is 'Opponent's Permission' if you think about it..."

Vandehey

  • Heroic Tier Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 71
    • Email
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #110 on: January 23, 2014, 07:34:59 PM »
Being a Tyranid player, if they release IG and Orks codexs as being strong, i will be very pissed off having to be stuck in the middle of all these codexs, I wont stop playing, and i surely will never stop bashing my numbers against all the bullets, but I will be sad. None of this will stop be from continuing to build my army bigger, I lover the models and I love the lore. I want to hit an obnoxious point number with my bugs and say it is a full Hive Fleet, not a splinter fleet. But that is my thoughts.

I dont care how much the stocks go down, or any of that, only hope they bring models they removed from my codex back in the supplements books.

Loranus

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1059
  • Pyromaniac with a Hat
    • Gaming with a Hat
    • Email
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #111 on: January 23, 2014, 10:41:09 PM »
I think they will bring models back. Look at this Cypher was Missing all of 5th Edition. A guy people loved they had a model for and such a controversial sort of character in the 40k Lore. He came back in 6th edition. Tyrannic War Veterans came back in 6th Edition. I wouldn't be surprised if we saw more Old Characters pop up alongside everything else.

I have to say some of the worst matches I have played are against Tourney players. It is why I revel in the Player's Choice award at Battlegrounds for promoting positive play. Magic the Gathering was ruined for me by a bad Community that has absolutely driven me away from it in college. Battlegrounds has a great community and it was a lot of fun playing in the couple of Sealed tournaments I played in.

Games-Workshop will get my money for things that I think are awesome or cool. As long as the Community in the area is pleasant and Habitable I will come and play the game even if I lose 9/10 games. Like I said before I am going to show up with what I want to play. Will I make it the best it can. Ya I try too but it will still be what I want to play. Salamanders on Bikes wielding Master Crafted Thunder hammers Rocking out to Motorhead.
I ride in on my Bike with my Hat of awesome and say Nay this place should be on fire.

http://gamingwithahat.wordpress.com

Ed

  • Epic Tier Level 27
  • ****
  • Posts: 905
  • "No, but have you hearda' Magic?"
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #112 on: January 24, 2014, 02:50:02 AM »
Pat your a good man.

Chase

  • Global Moderator
  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 5433
    • Email
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #113 on: January 24, 2014, 04:04:09 AM »
Quote
-GW is not concerning themselves with game balance or competitive play in any respect.

Quote
How is stuff like that encouraging?
  I really don't understand you people.

It's encouraging for two real reasons, in my opinion.

1) For the people that don't really care if the game is perfectly balanced, it reinforces the idea that they're primary focus is on cool models, cool "fluff," and allowing for "more cool stuff" to be on the table in "normal" games of 40k.  I very much support this.

2) It greenlights the ultracompetitive crowd to start spitballing and figuring out how to take what they're given (GW rules) and turn it into what they want (tournament rules).  The NOVA guys, the Adeption guys, even the west coast guys (who seem to like a different breed of 40k than the rest) and other clubs might get together to make the best of an otherwise no-so-great tournament situation.  I very much support this.

Or maybe we're still in the area where any army can do well in the right hands and little will change?
"In the absence of orders, go find something and kill it."
- Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

MM3791

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #114 on: January 24, 2014, 07:57:47 AM »
I like the west coast guys, finally other 40k players that are analyticly insane like me  ;D

It definitely is cool that GW gave it's blessing to modify the game for competitive players. Maybe we will see new comps develop soon.

AstartesXXVI

  • Heroic Tier Level 4
  • **
  • Posts: 150
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #115 on: January 24, 2014, 11:49:25 AM »
My approach has been one of fault tolerance with my club up north and it's worked fairly well for us, so I am approaching events in much the same fashion -- look at the issues with others, and eliminate those things from being an issue. Akin to an old saying I once heard about smart men learning from their mistakes, but wise men learning from everyone's mistakes. Since we're gearing up for a lot of events in 2014 I'm paying particular attention to this whole idea as it pertains to event running.

First, you have to look at the issues. Then, you have to eliminate the possibility of those things being issues. Refine and repeat.

Right off rip you have two huge problems: "Super heavies/Strength D is bullshit!" crowd versus "Why can't I use my super heavies/strength D!" crowd. Easy fix -- some events allow the expansions, some don't. Theme goes a long way; a backstory to the event instead of three one-off daisy-chained missions gives a good reason why one thing might be in place and other things wouldn't. Theme is what makes certain things seem silly to take.

I could think of lots of crazy ideas for this:
  • A tournament in which you have a sideboard army that uses the stuff from the expansions, for example, with a theme of calling for help). You could also ring a communal sideboard for a player; build a good couple of super heavies for the group's events and then simply pair people based on what they have, Strength D people fight Super Heavy people and people with neither fight other basic armies. The one mismatch, you give one of the guys the ringer bonus stuff to use.
  • I've also seen you guys have some great success with bracketing; you could easily make some Lords of War-centered objectives that are in addition to the normal mission, and bracket players based on that.
  • Invent up some ground level assets to use in the event that are as powerful as a super heavy might be, and then simply give those to players with no super heavy.
  • Give slight advantages in-game to armies that choose not to use certain powerful elements of the game.

But that is addressing one big issue. Tournaments in general have other long-standing problems that I think need addressing at the fundamental level before approaching the thematic level.

The number one problem I see right off the bat is rubrics. Rubrics never keep up with the game, it changes too much and too severely (or should I say...the PERCEPTIONS of the game change too much and too severely). I did away with all rubric-based scoring of any kind for our events as far as sportsmanship or appearances go. Rubrics always have the writer's preference ingrained in them by hook or by crook, too, so this eliminates two potential problems instead of just one.

Some people will say, "what if the other guy zero scores me?" Simple: drop soft scores that are significantly different from the others and replace them with an average -- this is done by a computer algorithm, so no bias, just pure math. Get the average with the bad score, without the score, and with an average instead...check for X% difference...if the average with the bad score is greater than X% different then the average without it, use the one with the compromised one. Done all by computer automatically, of course.

Some people will then say it won't work because it's too subjective. What ISN'T subjective about a game of 40k? You could play a one-sided game against a super strong army and have the time of your life or you could play a total newb that you crush and it is the worst game you've ever played. The hard and fast numbers of winning and losing just don't fly on their own; the player experience (which is SUBJECTIVE player to player) should be taken into account. Once you do this you have players trying to have a good game, instead of just a successful one.

Soft scores can make a difference but we also don't want them to make too huge a difference otherwise a person who is wrongfully judged can get screwed, even if you use the clever math. But numbers don't lie. There are guys out there (a few on this forum :) ) who are going to hate these ideas because they unfairly make them lose due to soft score points. But when we sit down to play a game of 40k, it is about more than winning -- events should reflect this. And I'm sorry, but not every time you get a bunch of 1's and 2's in sportsmanship means the event was broken.

Just some free thinking and rambling here, don't mind me. :)
"Really, the entire game is 'Opponent's Permission' if you think about it..."

MM3791

  • God
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #116 on: January 25, 2014, 01:40:34 PM »
Here's some more news:

So I am sure that many people will probably shoot holes through this and I was hesitant to post at all. With all the news surrounding Games Workshop over the last couple of weeks I think that it lines up fairly well. I was able to grab lunch with an old friend about a month ago who works for GW (not a local store croney). We talked everything GW and of course my drug of choice Warhammer Fantasy. He said that over the next coupel of months there would be drastic changes to the way GW does business...this was just in general. He didn't give me too many specifics, but now that the White Dwarf changes have hit the street openly and the news of a revamped website with FW product offerings and all it lines up. Once again he didnt come out and say that GW was going to be taking a hit with the earnings, but he stated that many of the changes had to do with new strategies to increase revenue and such. He has been traveling non-stop for new training and meetings, so it was easy to see something was coming down the pipe.

 So on to my main point. I have always been a fantasy fanatic...game of choice hands down. He stated that there would be a new release which would change the way fantasy is currently played. Currently, the idea is to have huge blocks of infantry and high priced special characters and beasts which makes for higher costs to players and conceptually more revenue for GW. However this did not work fo rone reason or another. So it was obvious some changes were needed. The new approach will aim at bringing more people back into the game by making it smaller and more affordable. The new rule set would focus on making warhammer more of a small block and skirmish based game with fewer miniatures needed. The new box set would have less miniatures, but would basically set people up to get in the game and playing at a much reduced cost.

 So he didnt give me the finer deatails that I would have liked, but he did say this would happen this summer for sure...not next year. He basically said that GW is being forced to make some changes due to some cash flow issues...which has become evident since we had lunch several weeks ago. It seems like he was pretty spot on so far with his vague statements...haha...take it as you will. But I have faith in this for many reasons. It seems with everything going on that it would line up well and make sense. GW needs a way to bring more people back intothe game while also doing soemthing to help bring fanatsy back up to strength.

 So has anybody else heard anything similar or am I out here on a limb.


Original thread can be found here, but it sounds like both 40k and Fantasy will receive giant changes this summer http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?388436-Warhammer-Fantasy-Changes-on-the-Horizon

BrianP

  • Heroic Tier Level 1
  • **
  • Posts: 66
    • Email
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #117 on: January 25, 2014, 03:41:03 PM »
Do I want to go spend 9 hours at a game store just to have my army wrecked 3 times because it isn't good enough(NOTE: army, not list).  There are a lot of other things I can do with my saturday.

I think many of us just want to go have some tactical games.  Nothing is more frustrating than being blown away because your book is shitty. 

This is one of the main reasons I stopped playing 40k. 

Keith I love your post and agree with these points whole-heartedly. Looking at the Templecon-prep results and wondering if I made the wrong decision skipping that event… seeing the army distribution tells me I did not. :-\

My opinion is just that, but right now the state of the game is certainly broken for me. For now, the best option seems to give Fantasy a shot and just wait and see how/if 40k changes as more and more books get released.

keithb

  • Epic Tier Level 24
  • ****
  • Posts: 811
Re: Long convo with GW today.
« Reply #118 on: January 25, 2014, 05:34:27 PM »
I can't disagree with giving fantasy a shot, since that is the main game I play!  ;)

But, I started to put in some minor changes to some things for 40k this year.  I've always met with really strong resistance to comping 40k, so I don't.  If the community would be willing to play games under some forms of comp.  I am all for it.


I have almost 0 interest in playing GW's Warhammer fantasy though.   Add in some community changes that have been evolving over the last 3 years and boom, you have a great game.

40k should do the same thing.