Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Tharcil on February 28, 2014, 04:54:31 PM
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I expect this to get way off track really quickly, but figured I'd give it a shot. Please make posts listing anything in the game rule wise you feel needs to be addressed. Not how you think it needs to be fixed, we can make specific threads for that later. I think Mike's thread got way off track about specific rules, because he and the Dark Star folks have already gone through this exercise, which the rest of the BG community has done, but not really in an organized way. My plan is to gather the topics we should discuss in this thread. Vote on the most important ones to discuss, then come up with 3 or 4 threads to talk how we can address them as BG community. I know it will be hard and not a lot of fun to only state the topic without stating your opinions and ideas to fix it, but let's see what we can do. I'll start the ball rolling with the following.
2+/++ re-rollable saves
Allowing Allies
Allowing Data-slates
D Weapons
Super Heavies/Gargantuans
Battle Brother Allies (ICs attaching)
Ignores Cover
Blessings - Too strong/no counters
Jet Bike Turbo boost distance
Stormraven OP
Wave Serpent Shields
Helldrake 360 firing arc
Dread,knight shunt
Ignores cover
Vehicle survivability
Walkers in CC vs MC
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I think it's specifically battle brother allies because of how they interact with their parent armies.
Also, you should add super heavies/gargantuan creatures to your list. Even without D, they would be a problem because not a lot besides D is good at killing a T9 monster (if these are even things you want to include in a comp'd "40k-lite").
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I'd go with Battle Brothers being a problem vs Allies being a problem.
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There's too much Ignores cover in the game.
I don't think it's 2+ saves being rerolled that's a problem.....it's invo saves being rerolled at all. 4++ on beast pack rerolled is plenty nasty enough. Conversely, there are ways to bypass armor and cover saves.
Generally speaking, Blessings are too good, there's too few ways to stop them.
Jet bikes being able to turbo 48" to an objective is actually a huge problem.
Bikes in general are just super effective compared to say, jump packs.
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Yup took only two replies before completely derailing. Andalucien, would you mind terribly deleting both posts, making your own thread and giving this an attempt to actually get off the ground. Your thoughts are great, but if we cannot as a community have a shred of organization on the forums nothing will actually progress for a competitive environment.
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Sorry man, you're right. will do.....
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Having played one a few times now, I'm getting the feeling that the Stormraven is pretty strong, unless playing against Tau in which case, too much interceptor and skyfire exists. I like flyers and don't think they are too over the top, but the stormraven in particular is a little overwhelming for some armies.
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There is an impressive amount of hate on the Wave Serpent's shield. I think addressing this alone could cleave the number of Eldar armies and allies you see everywhere pretty effectively.
The answer is pretty obvious, too -- just make them actually have to sacrifice the shield.
(Also, this thread and the approach outlined is a good idea!)
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Having played one a few times now, I'm getting the feeling that the Stormraven is pretty strong, unless playing against Tau in which case, too much interceptor and skyfire exists. I like flyers and don't think they are too over the top, but the stormraven in particular is a little overwhelming for some armies.
Erm, I feel quite the opposite. Problem is the SR is really not tougher than any other flyer, it's always-reserve rules really nerf it as an assault vehicle, and often the stuff you want to put in it is too risky to risk crashing.
I honestly prefer how it worked in 5th ed, it was a mainstay for me then. It sounds like your problems are more problems with Flyers, generally.
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I don't know if we are going down to specific unit fixes or not but thought I'd add it to the list
The Helldrake having a 360 firing arc on the flamer seems a little much. (sorry people who play chaos) I would have no problem with it if it had a front facing firing arc like it did before the FAQ.
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Let's try to keep this more to mechanics that are problematic than individual units. We need a list of core issues before we can break down which units any changes would effect.
You say storm ravens are bad, why? Too tough? Too fast? Too many weapons? People generally find them overcosted this edition for what they do, which rules do you think they're abusing in a game breaking manner? With wave serpents, same questions.
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I've updated the main post with the suggestions. Please don't counter the suggestions as they come up as it makes it more difficult to sort throug what needs to be discussed. Some voting later on will decide what gets discussed in more detail and in what order. Thank you all for the contributions so far.
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Is the dreadknights 30" shunt move still a thing?
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I've updated the main post with the suggestions. Please don't counter the suggestions as they come up as it makes it more difficult to sort throug what needs to be discussed. Some voting later on will decide what gets discussed in more detail and in what order. Thank you all for the contributions so far.
I don't know this is the best approach. If you just list everything someone has a problem with, you will wind up listing everything, eventually. I mean, I dislike Mawlock's, but they probably shouldn't be on the list.
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There's too much Ignores cover in the game.
this is a huge issue for a couple of the assault armies that are a bit underwhelming (orks with kustom force fields and tyranid ground swarms with venomthropes, though it's less of an issue for nids since their monsters are good enough to pick up the slack). the 5+ cover save from those is a great way to keep casualties down and actually manage to get guys into close combat, but since ignores cover is so prevalent you're typically going to end up with your dudes that provide cover getting shredded by the ignores cover units, then have your swarm picked apart by things that can't ignore cover.
it also takes some of the strategy out of the game since putting a more fragile unit in cover to give it protection ends up just being a moot point.
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Vehicles are weak as hell in comparison to Monstrous Creatures. Vehicles have (assuming no invul) exactly one thing protecting them from getting damaged, which is their AV (equivalent to toughness). They then have hull points, which are effectively wounds (most have 3), but IN ADDITION, they can be shaken, stunned, weapon destroyed, immobilized, or explode (instant death....).
In comparison, MCs have high toughness, high wounds, armor saves, they get cover by sticking their toe in it, and they can move further while firing two weapons.
If you compare straight across, toughness 8 (for example) is approximately equal to AV12 (requiring a S8 weapon a roll to pen/wound of 4). For an MC, some fraction of those may go away from armor, or from cover (which is comparitively easy to get), AND MAYBE AN INVUL AND MAYBE FNP. Jeeeeeeeeepers. I compared a DC dread to a riptide once, and I cried. A lot. Anyway, I think some sort of fix to this would significantly balance the armies that have OP MCs (GK, Tau, Eldar) against the armies that have really nerfed vehicles (Marines..... Guard? Do guard move? etc.)
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Yup, yup. When we say "vehicles", though, we really mean walkers, right? Vehicles have been nerfed too far, generally, but what it comes down to is that a dreadnought can not in any way fight even the weakest MC. (like, a RIptide could kick a Dreads ass, and CC oriented it is not. GK aside)
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Yup, yup. When we say "vehicles", though, we really mean walkers, right? Vehicles have been nerfed too far, generally, but what it comes down to is that a dreadnought can not in any way fight even the weakest MC. (like, a RIptide could kick a Dreads ass, and CC oriented it is not. GK aside)
Things like Riptides and the Dreadknight always seemed silly to be MCs. Why not consider making them also into walkers as that might adjust the power of them?
EDIT: This would go for all things that are obviously vehicles, not just the two mentioned.
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I agree
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OK, but that's a fluff-based argument, not a game balance argument. By that, you'd have to make Wraith Lords and knights walkers, too, and wraith lords have been MCs a LOOOOOONNNNNNGGGGGG time.
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It is a game balance argument as they would be easier to kill which is a thing since Riptides are one of the reasons the game sucks.
Also, Wraithlords being MCs a long time is actually a fluff decision, iirc.
You could go in the opposing direction and make all walkers MCs.
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I think Walkers being weak against MCs is a balancing thing. Walkers can't be hurt at all by things S4-5 if you consider them T8 equivalents (since you go against front armor), but MCs can. This makes walkers WAAAAAY better than MCs against regular dudes.
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It is a game balance argument as they would be easier to kill which is a thing since Riptides are one of the reasons the game sucks.
Also, Wraithlords being MCs a long time is actually a fluff decision, iirc.
You could go in the opposing direction and make all walkers MCs.
That's what the narrative did, with Bjorn. I'm not sure that actually made him better.
I'm aware of all the fluff around Wraithlords. I don't think making them MCs makes any more sense than anything else. They are not organic.
I don't think Riptides being MCs is particular over the top, defensively. And they still suck at combat. But what's weird is the smash rule makes them good against ICs, and walkers. I don't think that's appropriate. Maybe just remove the Smash rule from them?
I think Walkers being weak against MCs is a balancing thing. Walkers can't be hurt at all by things S4-5 if you consider them T8 equivalents (since you go against front armor), but MCs can. This makes walkers WAAAAAY better than MCs against regular dudes.
Well, except Dreads don't have enough attacks. They seriously lose against any marine squad that has at least a powerfist or a meltabomb. They sometimes die to simple krak grenades. That's not cool.
I really don't see anything wrong with literally doubling the attacks of regular dreads. (furioso's would be broken that way)
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I still think needing a 6 to hit flyers is a bad game design decision. It makes things so much more rock-scissors-papery.
I would actually vote -1 to hit flyers. But, I could live with -2.
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Not every army has access to meltabombs or krak grenades, also walkers typically have better weapons loadouts than MCs and are able to shoot more guns (while costing less than most shooty MCs). Maybe giving dreds the option to buy a 5+ invul vs smash attacks or something would be enough? I don't think making them better at killing stuff is the answer, just making them a little tougher against MCs would do (if this is even really a problem).
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Clearly the request to not talk about each topic while compiling was too complicated. Feel free to discuss whatever in any thread you'd like and don't bother to start a new one for a new topic. Good luck trying to sort this out since we can't even keep a forum thread organized we have no hope of communally organizing new rules. I'll leave it to someone with more patience. This is the second time is thread has gone off course, though we're pretending the first time didn't happen do to it being moderated.
I'd ask this thread be closed off since it is off topic and I have no interest in trying to continue the project for which it was started.
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Not every army has access to meltabombs or krak grenades, also walkers typically have better weapons loadouts than MCs and are able to shoot more guns (while costing less than most shooty MCs). Maybe giving dreds the option to buy a 5+ invul vs smash attacks or something would be enough? I don't think making them better at killing stuff is the answer, just making them a little tougher against MCs would do (if this is even really a problem).
If you can't hurt it, you're allowed to just run! They still don't have enough attacks to hurt the unit much. It just becomes a tarpit situation.
Yes, necrons will get run down. Should have gaussed it.
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Not every army has access to meltabombs or krak grenades, also walkers typically have better weapons loadouts than MCs and are able to shoot more guns (while costing less than most shooty MCs). Maybe giving dreds the option to buy a 5+ invul vs smash attacks or something would be enough? I don't think making them better at killing stuff is the answer, just making them a little tougher against MCs would do (if this is even really a problem).
If you can't hurt it, you're allowed to just run! They still don't have enough attacks to hurt the unit much. It just becomes a tarpit situation.
Yes, necrons will get run down. Should have gaussed it.
It's not about Necrons, it's about if the answer is to make this thing even better at killing stuff it's already good at killing vs making it more survivable vs the things that might be disproportionately better at killing walkers.
@Tharcil - I thought the point was for us to agree on a list, not to literally list every single thing somebody lost a game to. The fact that we're in agreement about some things and not others kind of highlights that. It will be a lot easier to look at things in the core mechanics that we all think are over the top before trying to look at units 1-2 people didn't like (ie storm ravens and walkers).
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Ok. I just don't think dreads need to tougher, the need to be more Killy. I imagine most SM players agree
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I love the idea of a stab at community organized rules system. I have no problem creating an "approval only" forum where people who are... on the same page ... can hash things out in a more orderly fashion. If you like, I can make it visible to everyone, but only certain people can comment within the thread. That way, people can talk about their opinions "outside" of the main folder without interruption to the general flow of orderly ideas.
I'm really curious what sort of things people can come up with, so let me or Chase know if you want us to set something like this up for you.
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ide like to be able to put in input as a player who enjoys the coolness factor of some rules.
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Vehicles used to have armor saves back in the day. Maybe bring something like that back?
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I think the MCs getting area terrain cover saves is probably something that could be easily addressed. The Riptide, the Wraithknight, and other oval-base MCs really don't need that buff.