Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: andalucien on December 01, 2013, 03:46:23 PM
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It costs $4 and consists of rules for one and only one model, Bel'Akor. I already bought it, because, hey $4.
He's available as an HQ choice for Chaos Space Marines or Chaos Daemons.
He's 350 points and is basically an alternative choice to the totally-maxed-out daemon princes you see people running around with.
He actually seems pretty different, powerful, yet fair, for his points... very cool character. Daemon prince stats, but,
- he has Eternal Warrior
- he's a mastery level 3 psyker that only knows Telepathy, but he automatically knows ALL of telepathy.
- Wings, no armour, but a 4++ and shrouded.
- A few other more minor abilities
Effort level relative to # of pages on this release seems decent.
It seems that GW will be coming out with these sorts of digital releases quite frequently. Interesting.
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Unit itself looks pretty good. Trend of digital releases, nickel and diming the customer, not so good.
My concern is for making fair events. We'll have to make the increasingly difficult to decision whether to include all supplements or no supplements.
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Yes, that is mainly why I posted.
You kind of either need to
a. Put a lot of time into understanding each supplement and stay on top of it (and decide which ones are OK).
b. Just disallow all content other than certain "core" content (like, codexes).
c. Just allow all official supplements and know that you're probably going to be suprised with stuff you've never heard of.
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You kind of either need to
a. Put a lot of time into understanding each supplement and stay on top of it (and decide which ones are OK).
b. Just disallow all content other than certain "core" content (like, codexes).
c. Just allow all official supplements and know that you're probably going to be suprised with stuff you've never heard of.
All of the above are viable. I would expect games to take a bit longer with "A" and "C" as players discuss the stat lines, special abilities and wargear of units that are "digital exclusive". Perhpas we'll need longer matches or smaller games.
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Yes, that is mainly why I posted.
You kind of either need to
a. Put a lot of time into understanding each supplement and stay on top of it (and decide which ones are OK).
b. Just disallow all content other than certain "core" content (like, codexes).
c. Just allow all official supplements and know that you're probably going to be suprised with stuff you've never heard of.
Hmm, I thought I posted....
I see A at this point being more than a full time job. B or C, depending on the flavor of the tournament. And we'll see what the big boys do with their events, and how those go.
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Makes sense.
Yes, perhaps some sort of "standard" about how to treat this new content will emerge...
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It costs $4 and consists of rules for one and only one model, Bel'Akor. I already bought it, because, hey $4.
He's available as an HQ choice for Chaos Space Marines or Chaos Daemons.
He's 350 points and is basically an alternative choice to the totally-maxed-out daemon princes you see people running around with.
He actually seems pretty different, powerful, yet fair, for his points... very cool character. Daemon prince stats, but,
- he has Eternal Warrior
- he's a mastery level 3 psyker that only knows Telepathy, but he automatically knows ALL of telepathy.
- Wings, no armour, but a 4++ and shrouded.
- A few other more minor abilities
Effort level relative to # of pages on this release seems decent.
It seems that GW will be coming out with these sorts of digital releases quite frequently. Interesting.
So, whose god is he a pawn of?
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So, whose god is he a pawn of?
Oh, that information will be another $4.
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I am strongly leaning towards not allowing "digital only" supplements.
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Unit itself looks pretty good. Trend of digital releases, nickel and diming the customer, not so good.
I see it as a "Patch" or quickfix, would you prefer they wait another few years until the Chaos dex is fully updated again?
Yes, that is mainly why I posted.
You kind of either need to
a. Put a lot of time into understanding each supplement and stay on top of it (and decide which ones are OK).
b. Just disallow all content other than certain "core" content (like, codexes).
c. Just allow all official supplements and know that you're probably going to be suprised with stuff you've never heard of.
Maybe I'm the minority here, but I am strongly against banning or comping anything.. I don't understand how Space Marines work (I really don't), should we ban them too? I don't see how limiting players options from intentionally designed, legal rules adds to the overall fun, creativity, and freedom of the game.
I am strongly leaning towards not allowing "digital only" supplements.
Even though independent stores don't directly benefit from digital supplments sales, they can benefit from sales of existing models that a new supplement promotes. For example, a box that sits on the shelf and collects dust, may all of a sudden get a rules update in a digital supplment and make it very popular.
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So, whose god is he a pawn of?
He is the very first daemon prince, a product of all 4 gods. He has no mark.
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... and to reinforce the situation, it appears that a new "micro-rules for sale" thingie will be launching for Tau TOMORROW.
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Even though independent stores don't directly benefit from digital supplments sales, they can benefit from sales of existing models that a new supplement promotes. For example, a box that sits on the shelf and collects dust, may all of a sudden get a rules update in a digital supplment and make it very popular.
Yep, could be true.
This PARTICULAR update was very obviously meant to boost sales of this here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1710166a
Is that resellable by Chase/BG?
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I am strongly leaning towards not allowing "digital only" supplements.
I would totally understand that.
I would ask for ONE exception: the new Sisters of Battle codex. Because, if you ban it, doesn't that mean that you have to allow the OLD SoB codex (unless you just want to say, sisters aren't welcome at BG)?
Reasons why not to revert to old one:
1) It's just weird. It would be like letting people play with the old 4th edition Tyranid codex.
2) The old codex also was no longer for sale at BG, right? (it was spread across 2 old white dwarf issues).
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I am strongly leaning towards not allowing "digital only" supplements.
Even though independent stores don't directly benefit from digital supplments sales, they can benefit from sales of existing models that a new supplement promotes. For example, a box that sits on the shelf and collects dust, may all of a sudden get a rules update in a digital supplment and make it very popular.
I feel like this is easily countered by the bad blood "new" "micro rules" might create between players at events and between players and referees at events.
Part of me likes where all of this is headed. It certainly promotes a much more casual feel and play environment where players can expect they won't know everything (anything?) about their opponents army and how it works. They can just take what they want, roll dice, and have fun with some cool models.
The other part of me things that it's ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE for the longevity of the game. It is my experience that healthy "organized play" is paramount to the success of hobby games, specifically at game stores. GW releasing small, poorly worded, sometimes inconsistent "rules updates" that are not always available to everyone at the same time, through the same channels and then expecting the events in your area to immediately include all of them is a really, really bad thing for everyone.
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Is that resellable by Chase/BG?
As a special order item only.
Usually, anything with the little "Available to Order" icon is "Special Order Only."
GW does not want me putting those items on my shelf, sends them in small white or brown boxes, and sells them to me for a very small discount off of the retails price. Some great examples of how stupid this system is would be the Eldar Wave Serpent, Thunderfire Cannon, or basically every single special character out there.
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i'm all for only allowing codexs and supplements that only come in hardback and thus sold at BG
Sure there will have to be exceptions in certain cases (the aforementioned Sisters of Battle codex) but these will be rare
these new mini 4 dollar rules things will almost assuredly never be for sale in hardcover form
Personally i like the feel of a book, and i understand some people prefer digital formats. But in the last couple tournaments twice people have started telling me about some random new rule and proceeded to show me this codex on their phone.
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You could always give digital releases shakedown time. As part of the normal copypasta for tournaments you could add a line in where digital releases are not legal if they were released in the current year or a set time frame like a 3 months. That way we can see what the bigger tournaments do before committing to allowing it.
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I kind of like the feel of a book too, but I have to admit, I'll probably never buy another paper book again (fiction, cookbook, 40k codex, anything). Why? Because I'm a space case and I tend to lose things. The other week I left 2 cookbooks in the cart in the grocery store parking lot. I think I've left a codex at Battlegrounds twice, and I can't even count the number of times I've been walking around like "umm, did I leave my codex at this table"? I don't leave my phone anywhere because I've learned to feel naked without it.
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Ironically I bought the Be'lakor model 10 months ago and have been using him since as a proxy for Fateweaver, so its nice that I will be able to field him as himself. His mastery of the Telepathy lore will allow me to mind control Riptides, Wraithknights, and even Brad's Furiuoso Dreadnaughts ;D Those things are a pain in the ass lol
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Part of me likes where all of this is headed. It certainly promotes a much more casual feel and play environment where players can expect they won't know everything (anything?) about their opponents army and how it works. They can just take what they want, roll dice, and have fun with some cool models.
The other part of me things that it's ABSOLUTELY HORRIBLE for the longevity of the game. It is my experience that healthy "organized play" is paramount to the success of hobby games, specifically at game stores. GW releasing small, poorly worded, sometimes inconsistent "rules updates" that are not always available to everyone at the same time, through the same channels and then expecting the events in your area to immediately include all of them is a really, really bad thing for everyone.
I agree completely. The competitive scene has helped BG promote 40k events. If that suffers, I don't see how BG doesn't suffer too.
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It's extraordinarily easy (and free) to convert a .mobi or .epub format to .pdf, which you can then print out and bring with you to show your opponents any relevant rules questions.
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Typhus, to me the main issue isn't that the supplements are digital, it's that they're so numerous, badly done, and direct-order-only.
So, it looks like there is going to be one of these new supplements every day until christmas, they're calling it "Digital Advent" which implies a new thing revealed every day.
Today's digital release is a lot more disappointing than the initial promising Bel'a'kor: Anyone remember that dig I made about "Codex: Broadsides"? Well, that's pretty much exactly what they just did. You can ally in 2 units of broadsides and a Riptide as a SEPARATE detachment (not using allies slot). If you do so, they all get Tank Hunters and Preferred Enemy: Space Marines.
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So, this bothers me a few different ways:
1) I, as an in the know competitive player, didn't even hear of this until now.
2) it doesn't actually look all that balanced, sorry, Matt.
3)GW has gone from a "we re not a game company, we're a model company", to a "we pump out rules for money" company.
4) this has destroyed any expectation a player may have of actually knowing all the rules available in a game
I will note, Matt, that the Tau expansions is a dataslate, meant to apoc only. I feel like this should be seen in a similar light. It certainly doesn't feel like a "real" expansion. No, I have no idea what easy marker there is for a codex to be "official" anymore. The Supplements (like clan raukaan), I think should count, codex inquisition I am less sure about. Little $4 one a day thingies really shouldn't.
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Hi Sir Prometheus,
I didn't buy the Tau one, in what manner does it say that it's for apocalypse only? ALL of these releases are called "Dataslates". There's no link between "dataslate" and "apocalypse" other than that a dataslate can contain rules for apocalypse (just like a Supplement can).
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It's 40k, not apocaplyse.
"ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army."
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Today's digital release is a lot more disappointing than the initial promising Bel'a'kor: Anyone remember that dig I made about "Codex: Broadsides"? Well, that's pretty much exactly what they just did. You can ally in 2 units of broadsides and a Riptide as a SEPARATE detachment (not using allies slot). If you do so, they all get Tank Hunters and Preferred Enemy: Space Marines.
This....stuff like this really does not make me want to play 40k anymore (oh wait, I am on 40k hiatus).
It is a tough go for Orks right now, but some of this stuff is just mind numbingly insane.
I guess it is cool that they are giving you rules for those big boxes you buy...but at least PP gives you those rules in the box and doesn't expect you to pay an extra 5$ for them.
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from looking at the one rule set released so far I think these are great. Nickle and dime for rules is not great, but no one is going to need to buy all of them. Each person might get one or two. The fact that you can access something that could update a codex that isn't going to be overhauled for who knows how long is great!
My 2 cents. These should be allowed in tournaments, but not necessarily all of them. We occasionally allow IA, and these are far more accessible than those books. Have some tournaments where they are allowed and some where they are not. Every tourney that has allowed IA, I have never heard of the unit, seen the model or had any idea what it could do before playing. The player has always had a hard copy (book or print out) that they shared. I really can't see how allowing these as often as we allow IA stuff to be that much of a game changer to the tournament scene.
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Yeah can we all agree that if an event is going to allow Forgeworld, it should also allow digital? I don't think these types of releases introduce issues that wouldn't already be present in a FW event.
IMHO the more uncertain discussion is really whether to allow them in the types of events where ForgeWorld ISN'T allowed, the more "competitive style" events.
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Have some tournaments where they are allowed and some where they are not.
This is what will almost certainly happen.
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If they're going to be doing this everyday this month maybe one big thread about them rather than 30 small ones?
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I think there's still only one thread :) We can just keep adding to this one.
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Fun fact: the Tau supplement can be profitably used by EVERY army except for tyranids.
For example, you can run Daemons, have CSM as your allied detachment, and still use include 2 broadsides and a riptide by using this supplement. They are desparate allies, but who cares? The broadsides detachment doesn't include any scoring units anyway.
and... the broadsides and riptides are actually BUFFED versions. Tank Hunters and preferred enemy vs. half the armies in the game.
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Fun fact: the Tau supplement can be profitably used by EVERY army except for tyranids.
For example, you can run Daemons, have CSM as your allied detachment, and still use include 2 broadsides and a riptide by using this supplement. They are desparate allies, but who cares? The broadsides detachment doesn't include any scoring units anyway.
and... the broadsides and riptides are actually BUFFED versions. Tank Hunters and preferred enemy vs. half the armies in the game.
Good, I'll "countas" my forgefiend as a broadside and BAM Bob's your uncle.
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Isn't it 6 broadsides though? With the riptide you're looking at 600 points
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Isn't it 6 broadsides though? With the riptide you're looking at 600 points
its 570 naked with no upgrades.
Fits perfectly into my standard list, so, TANK HUNTING FOR ERRBODY.
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Isn't it 6 broadsides though? With the riptide you're looking at 600 points
its 570 naked with no upgrades.
Fits perfectly into my standard list, so, TANK HUNTING FOR ERRBODY.
Or how about
- Seer council
- Dark eldar allies /w/ Baron
- 4 jetbike units
- 2 units of better broadsides
- 1 better riptide
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I spent my TG weekend working on this. It's the obvious response to GW post 2011.
(http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/13894875/640/13894875.jpg) (http://picturepush.com/public/13894875)
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It's 40k, not apocaplyse.
"ALLIED FORMATIONS
Formations do not count as your army’s Allied Detachment, even if they are made up of units from a different codex to your Primary Detachment, and they do not stop you from taking an Allied Detachment in the same army. However, the Levels of Alliance rules from the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook do apply to them and units chosen from a different codex that
are in the same army."
Soo....ok, this is just stupid. Why WOULDN'T YOU DO THAT? Every Tau player (except me) thinks it's all about Broadsides and Riptides. Why wouldn't you want them to have Tank Hunters and Preferred Enemy randomly, just because?
This is random and stupid. There's no way we can really consider using these little $4 cheat sheets, especially if there's going to be 25 of them by Christmas. They're clearly beer & pretzels, fluffy, not much thought given sorts of rules. These are not meant for competitive play. Even less so than FW.
Why even have a Force Org chart anymore? Just take whatever the hell you want! It's no longer a game, we're just throwing dice and pushing models around.
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Just take whatever the hell you want! It's no longer a game, we're just throwing dice and pushing models around.
Welcome to 6th edition, enjoy your stay.
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Remember the days when GW released only 2 codexes per year while the other armies got shafted for a decade.. yea lets go back to that :P
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Remember the days when GW released only 2 codexes per year while the other armies got shafted for a decade.. yea lets go back to that :P
I prefer that to what we have now, though obviously there's a happy medium. If the hobby was about instant gratification, the models would be sold already painted and assembled.
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I would also prefer going back to the single-codex system. No allies. The experiment with mixing and matching was fun, but now after the novelty has worn off I'm realizing I kind of had more fun when every army you would play against had its own inherent strengths and weaknesses.
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So it looks like day 3's digital download is Tactica Riptide.
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?aId=22200010a
For the low low price of 3 dollars you too can master the fine art of shoot stuff don't get into close combat.
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I would also prefer going back to the single-codex system. No allies. The experiment with mixing and matching was fun, but now after the novelty has worn off I'm realizing I kind of had more fun when every army you would play against had its own inherent strengths and weaknesses.
I just don't see it happening, GW has made tons of cash off people buying models for allied supplements and I think it's here to stay.
The whole inquisitor thing being outside the allies and these new Special detachments like the tau cadre things are getting a might rediculous
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Look, allies are awesome. If nothing else, it means there are no "behind the curve" codexes anymore, because you can always shore up what you lack.
I'm not sure it's so great for armies to be able to ally with themselves, like Tau-Farsight, but also including things like Space Marines. Why should SM be able to get 4 Elites, or Heavies? Just cuz?
We really need to ban these dataslates, though. No, they shouldn't be used, not even when we allow Forge World. Didja know wthey seem to corresponding to "bundles" (I hate that they use that word, as there are no discounts) off the GW website. So......they're a pure money grab.
We probably shouldn't allow Codex INquisition, either. Supplements should be allowed though.
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We really need to ban these dataslates, though. No, they shouldn't be used, not even when we allow Forge World. Didja know wthey seem to corresponding to "bundles" (I hate that they use that word, as there are no discounts) off the GW website. So......they're a pure money grab.
these bundles surprisingly do have steep discounts
the Tau one saves you $95 bucks, the SM flyer one like $30 bucks, the Eldar one like $85 bucks.
Great way to get into a new army, have BG order them for you today!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440161a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k
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Look, allies are awesome. If nothing else, it means there are no "behind the curve" codexes anymore, because you can always shore up what you lack.
You can shore up what you lack by morphing your army into 50% of itself and 50% of one of the most recent codexes. It's no longer as much "your army" at all. Like, if you're an Orks player, you can make your Ork army stronger by really making it half Tau. But does that actually mean Orks are good and satisfying? No, it means Tau are good and satisfying. Then you realize after a while, "well, I'm half Tau anyway, wouldn't I be better off if the OTHER half was Eldar instead of Orks?" And all over the world, armies start to get more and more the same and the personality slowly bleeds out.
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Hence the mountin bro!! Mono lists for the WIN!!!
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Hence the mountin bro!! Mono lists for the WIN!!!
Hence the mountain bro. That's a good summary of how I am currently getting myself excited about 40k :)
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Actually, I'm not even sure that it puts all armies on a level playing field any more than they were before allies.
If before, we could divide armies into two levels, "from a good codex" and "from a bad codex" (an oversimplification, but useful for the point),
now we can divide things into THREE levels:
"Armies from a bad codex",
"Armies from a good codex or from a bad codex that shore up their weaknesses with allies",
and the newcomer,
"Armies that combine units from different codexes to form something really broken". Like the various "stars".
Now, your fluffy pure-ork list might usually lose against an army from a good codex (or an army using some allies), just as it would have before. But if you practice, you might win sometimes, and you will usually have at least a fun game.
But if you take your fluffy pure-ork list against like a tuned Jetseer council or something, you're just wasting your time. The outcome is never in doubt at all, and you might not even kill anything.
The increased tools available to everyone have ALSO increased the ceiling of how powerful and broken an army can be, so "normal armies" find themselves just as far behind as they were, and "fluffy armies" are almost playing an entirely different game now.
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I for one, welcome our new Dataslate Overlords.
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We really need to ban these dataslates, though. No, they shouldn't be used, not even when we allow Forge World. Didja know wthey seem to corresponding to "bundles" (I hate that they use that word, as there are no discounts) off the GW website. So......they're a pure money grab.
these bundles surprisingly do have steep discounts
the Tau one saves you $95 bucks, the SM flyer one like $30 bucks, the Eldar one like $85 bucks.
Great way to get into a new army, have BG order them for you today!
http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/armySubUnitCats.jsp?catId=cat440161a&rootCatGameStyle=wh40k
OK, well, I am at least happy GW is bringing back an actual package discount of some kind.
Look, allies are awesome. If nothing else, it means there are no "behind the curve" codexes anymore, because you can always shore up what you lack.
You can shore up what you lack by morphing your army into 50% of itself and 50% of one of the most recent codexes. It's no longer as much "your army" at all. Like, if you're an Orks player, you can make your Ork army stronger by really making it half Tau. But does that actually mean Orks are good and satisfying? No, it means Tau are good and satisfying. Then you realize after a while, "well, I'm half Tau anyway, wouldn't I be better off if the OTHER half was Eldar instead of Orks?" And all over the world, armies start to get more and more the same and the personality slowly bleeds out.
Dude, not at all. Back when Tau were bad (beginning of 6th) bringing in allies from even also-not-good codexes was super helpful. I used GK strikes squads because that's what I own (and yeah, GK were good then) but you could totally have done something similar and super useful with Ork Boyz.
Allies are NOT just "make my suck codex less suck by bringing in something from a broken codex". (though yes, that can happen too). I'm talking real synergies.
You want to lay a mono list, do it, I do sometimes. Often, before the farsight supplement came along. But allies are lie the best idea GW ever had, don't whine about them.
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You want to lay a mono list, do it, I do sometimes. Often, before the farsight supplement came along. But allies are lie the best idea GW ever had, don't whine about them.
Bennett while I agree with most of what your saying bout the supplments, to say dont whine about allies when this entire thread you have been whining about supplements just defeats the purpose man. I wanted to point this out so this thread stays on topic and keeps moving forward in a positive manner.
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Sure, fair enough. Though, point of order, I was whining about dataslates.
Supplements I think are mostly a great thing...Clan Raukaan seems the best example of how it should be done. Everything is about the same power level as the main book, but it's not MORE powerful, so that the only people who would want to play are Iron Hands enthusiasts, which is as it should be.
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Sure, fair enough. Though, point of order, I was whining about dataslates.
Supplements I think are mostly a great thing...Clan Raukaan seems the best example of how it should be done. Everything is about the same power level as the main book, but it's not MORE powerful, so that the only people who would want to play are Iron Hands enthusiasts, which is as it should be.
Pfft, I just want 2 unkillable bike chapter masters.
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We can have tournaments for purists, only 4th ed rulebook and codex are allowed. Or just go back to 1st ed.
You'd think GW would get a little credit for ramping up support(big time) for their players and systems, but no matter what new products and rules they come up with, it is painfully clear that in the 41st millennium.. there is only whining & belly aching :o
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We can have tournaments for purists, only 4th ed rulebook and codex are allowed. Or just go back to 1st ed.
You'd think GW would get a little credit for ramping up support(big time) for their players and systems, but no matter what new products and rules they come up with, it is painfully clear that in the 41st millennium.. there is only whining & belly aching :o
Hey, I give GW credit when they do something right (like the last 4 real codexes), and I criticize them when they do something wrong (like the stuff I'm talking about in this thread). And of course it's all just someone's opinion. If some other people agree, and want to play using what we all see as a better game, no harm in it.
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We can have tournaments for purists, only 4th ed rulebook and codex are allowed. Or just go back to 1st ed.
You'd think GW would get a little credit for ramping up support(big time) for their players and systems, but no matter what new products and rules they come up with, it is painfully clear that in the 41st millennium.. there is only whining & belly aching :o
They've been writing progressively less-clear rules and haven't written a legit FAQ in at least 9 months. That's not support, that's just pumping out rules for $$$.
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They've been writing progressively less-clear rules and haven't written a legit FAQ in at least 9 months. That's not support, that's just pumping out rules for $$$.
I played 10 years ago and have gotten back into 40k this past year and I'd have to say it certainly seems this way. I'd don't think I'd mind seeing something like patches to current codeices to fix or balance what's not working, but charging $4 for more rules to add a character to your list seems tacky. It's like gw is shooting us in the face with a shotgun stuffed with whatever rules they feel like adding and charging us for it.
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Codex: Trogdor.
He was a man. Now, he is a...DRAGON MAN.
Apparently his flamers have a rule called "Burniniate" which hit every model on the table and causes instant death on a 1+.
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They've been writing progressively less-clear rules and haven't written a legit FAQ in at least 9 months. That's not support, that's just pumping out rules for $$$.
Agree.
It's like gw is shooting us in the face with a shotgun stuffed with whatever rules they feel like adding and charging us for it.
Brazzers.
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Codex: Trogdor.
He was a man. Now, he is a...DRAGON MAN.
Apparently his flamers have a rule called "Burniniate" which hit every model on the table and causes instant death on a 1+.
I believe Trogdor is actually a heldrake.
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but the character data slates are worth what people are willing to pay for them. If people are willing to pay $4 for extra rules, then GW will continue to sell them.. from a business perspective, they'd be stupid not to.
Also no one is being forced to buy them, but they still cost less then a coffee at Starbucks, or a Redbull. Imagine the people who buy that coffee everyday ;) I think the issue is less about GW policy, and more about people being unable to decide on how to spend their own money. If you find yourself crushing up plastic space men and snorting the powder, then maybe it's time to take a break from the hobby. ;D
Personally if I had to choose I'd probably go with the Redbull, but I wouldn't shun or stop an opponent from using them. I'm all for individual freedom of choice.
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It's not the $4, the $4 is just revealing GW's motivation (i.e. not making a better game). They could be free, and they'd be just as destructive from a game perspective. (they are free, effectively, btw, anyone who wants a digital GW product for free can get it).
I mean, what if I Copy and Pasted some fluff, and wrote a 2 line rule that let you take those White Dwarf Flmaers of Tzeentch (y'know, with the AP2 wounds on 4+), but with, I dunno Hit and run, and charged you $10 for the privilege?
Would that be OK? Would it be legit? WHat happens when GW does the same thing? Is it OK? Is it legit?
Sometimes you just have to say "no".
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I'm pro-choice
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I'm pro-choice
Lol
Also it's all going to come down to what the GTs decide to allow in tournaments and that's going to dictate what the local tournaments end up doing for the most part.
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Nobody's saying anything about taking anyone's choice away.
I'm just calling a spade a spade, and calling these recent releases transparent attempts to introduce "Pay-to-Win" to the world of miniature games while putting as little effort as possible into new content, testing, or models. If that works for you, great. It doesn't work for me and there's no reason I have to be quiet about it.
I can tell you that for the first time in a few years, me & my gaming buddies met up last week and did NOT play 40k. We played Lords of Waterdeep. We had a great time. I can also tell you that I've been reading about Hordes and Warmachine lately. Sigh, if only I liked the models more.
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Nobody's saying anything about taking anyone's choice away.
I'm just calling a spade a spade, and calling these recent releases transparent attempts to introduce "Pay-to-Win" to the world of miniature games while putting as little effort as possible into new content, testing, or models. If that works for you, great. It doesn't work for me and there's no reason I have to be quiet about it.
I can tell you that for the first time in a few years, me & my gaming buddies met up last week and did NOT play 40k. We played Lords of Waterdeep. We had a great time. I can also tell you that I've been reading about Hordes and Warmachine lately. Sigh, if only I liked the models more.
Matt Ward was when it hit me.
Also, if you are ever interested in a demo game of Warmachine, I would happy to oblige. ;)
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I mean, what if I Copy and Pasted some fluff, and wrote a 2 line rule that let you take those White Dwarf Flmaers of Tzeentch (y'know, with the AP2 wounds on 4+), but with, I dunno Hit and run, and charged you $10 for the privilege?
The thing is Mr. Prometheus, that's not really much different from the REAL new Broadsides detachment supplement thing. Haha.
Well, to be honest, I've put so much effort into my armies that I'm sure I'll never totally quit 40k over something like this. Maybe just supplement it with other games a bit more :)
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I hear you, I have 4000+ points of Carcharodons (space sharks for you low gothic speaking plebes) and over 10,000 points of various chaos (Vraksian renegades, Death Guard, Khorne and Daemons).
I'm just waiting for GW to calm itself down a bit before I play again. The best idea, which many of the people in this thread are kind of hinting at,possibly unknowingly, and others who play 40k is to own the game and play it on your terms rejecting the BS.
I'm just having too much fun with steampunk dwarves and steampunk lightning robots to want to handle the sieve.
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Hmm, the_trooper, I think I may follow in your footsteps on this one.
I've actually played a demo of warmachine, and a hordes demo game also. At TempleCon. Seemed fun.
Yeah I'm probably gonna give this a try. It's just a matter of picking the right faction for me and I'll dip my toe. How well does the WM/H community tend to tolerate alternate models (assuming a good attempt at maintaining Wyzwyg)?
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Alternate models, provided they cover the WYSIWYG requirement, tend to be ok in casual play.
The rules for the tournaments are pretty distinct on it (must be based on the correct model) but allow for Tournament Organizers to allow for more liberal models.
I assume you are trying to sate your love of converting? Converting is encouraged as long as the weapons of the model are properly displayed. For instance, a short sword shouldn't be used for a halberd and if the model has a shield, it needs to have shield on the model. Privateer Press also has a very rich bits section on their website, pretty much every metal model produced by them is available in bits form.
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Warmachine really is a better game, I have a small cryx army. I think I have the same problem everyone else does.....sunk cost. Partly it's models, but more it's exp-- I have spent many years getting pretty good at 40k (if I do say so myself) and in warmachine I'm a newb.
I like most of the models, personally.
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Hmm, the_trooper, I think I may follow in your footsteps on this one.
I've actually played a demo of warmachine, and a hordes demo game also. At TempleCon. Seemed fun.
Yeah I'm probably gonna give this a try. It's just a matter of picking the right faction for me and I'll dip my toe. How well does the WM/H community tend to tolerate alternate models (assuming a good attempt at maintaining Wyzwyg)?
This is what I did. Love me some Menoth knights....Haven't played 40k is six months.
Keep hoping Orks getting a new dex will bring me back in.
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No one is taking away my plaguetower or the wonderful memories I've had with my friends blowing it up.
It's just a matter of switching gears for a while. Personally, I look at it like switching between 40k and Fantasy. I get to still support the store and have mini gaming fun, just in a different system.
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You're making way too much sense the_trooper, and you don't sound bitter at all. I'm suspicious. Haha.
Well, I found some horde/warmachine models I actually do like. I think this is the direction I'm gonna go:
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/36003_ClockworkAngels_WEB.jpg
http://privateerpress.com/files/products/36001_AuroraNumenofAerogenesis_WEB.jpg
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Nobody's saying anything about taking anyone's choice away.
I'm just calling a spade a spade, and calling these recent releases transparent attempts to introduce "Pay-to-Win" to the world of miniature games while putting as little effort as possible into new content, testing, or models. If that works for you, great. It doesn't work for me and there's no reason I have to be quiet about it.
With the accelerated rate of releases and the way certain allied detachments can make your army way better. It has already been pay to win, maybe its just getting more obvious?
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I can't be angry with gw for making money, it is the ultimate goal of capitolism after all, I just wish they would use a little more quality control is all. The game already seems unbalanced and now they are throwing foc out the window with no reguard for the quality of the game.
And as much as I like my warmachine khador force, it can't compete with the scale of 40k that I enjoy so much.
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Lots of talk here about how this is ruining the game....has anyone played a game yet where this was used, watched one in person, or scene a bat rep? I'm playing devils advocate here a bit because what I have seen so far does have me a bit concerned about the balance of competitive play. I'd just be a lot more concerned about every army have inquisitors added in than I would the Fire Support Cadre. Anyone that wants to add 600+ points of something that is widely expected to be on most tables and you can plan to counter against is fine by me.
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Yeah I'm not angry with them for trying to make money. They're just doing it in a way that makes the game less enjoyable for me.
By Pay to Win, I mean something very specific, the way that you "unlock" content by in-app-purchases in video games:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=pay-to-win
That's kinda what codex: inq is.
No new rules or models in the codex, but if you pay GW $35, it unlocks the ability to use some of the better pre-existing units in your army (whatever army that is).
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Or you know say Fuck GW and just download the pdf >:)
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Yeah that's true Grimwulfe...
Hmm, what is it exactly that bugs me so much about this then? I guess it's what it demonstrates about GW's approach to the rules of the game. They're willing to just throw wild stuff out there that drastically affects army composition, not because it will make things more interesting, but because they think a certain percentage of people will buy the supplement rather than stealing it (which unfortunately, I did because I was too excited to wait for someone to post a pirated version). It shows that it's not a labor of love to them the way my armies are to me.
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It's all about the bundles on the website. They're breaking the rules to sell the models. They just think they ALSO get to charge $4 for the rules.
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I wouldn't advocate stealing rules as that is a bit silly.
What I would advocate for is just owning the rules or even combining the rules in an easily accessible compendium at the store so people can see it once this 25 days thing is done. Once they are all available, people can make the decision to purchase them and if they should be part of the game. I feel Chase is already on the right path (waiting a month or so for rules before Tourney legal) and even these microtransactions don't change it.
To be entirely fair to GW, since I was advocating for Warmachine, I should say the following:
GW has seen the growth of Privateer Press. Privateer Press releases models with rules all the time. In that system, it actually works really well since the models and rules are contained in the same package.
If GW is shifting it's paradigm, like all changes, it's going to be a little rough to get used to.
To buy rules from Privateer Press, it costs either a blanket cost of x (I think it's $10) for a faction in an electronic format OR .50 per card if you only want the rules. As much as I smack talk about Warroom, it's actually pretty attractive in the sense that it is cost effective. $60 gets you all models rules that are existing and future releases.
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GW has seen the growth of Privateer Press. Privateer Press releases models with rules all the time. In that system, it actually works really well since the models and rules are contained in the same package.
This is one of the best things about PP. I also love that EVERYONE gets an update at once. Vengeance comes out in February and it is not like only Cignar gets updated, or Khador, but everyone gets a little something. It is nice knowing that I can always play Menoth and it never is going to be an instant loose faction because it hasn't gotten a new codex in 5 years (unlike my Orks).
To buy rules from Privateer Press, it costs either a blanket cost of x (I think it's $10) for a faction in an electronic format OR .50 per card if you only want the rules. As much as I smack talk about Warroom, it's actually pretty attractive in the sense that it is cost effective. $60 gets you all models rules that are existing and future releases.
And if you only play the one faction, like the aforementioned Menoth, it is only $4.99 (I think). Plus I like that it isn't locked to one device, so I can have it on either my Wife's iPad or Kindle.
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Today's is rules for fantasy to field their new restless dead battleforce as a separate detachment similar to the whole Tau Broadsides thing I guess. I don't know if anyone can take it or just certain armies.
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Hmm, now that I think of it, my current plan, which is going all out for making Tyranids my "next thing" is kinda convenient. Tyranids can't use any of these addendums, so I won't have that guilt of "well... i really SHOULD be putting broadsides in instead of this inferior devastator squad..."
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How does something like a Baneblade stack up against the Tau broadside / riptide Cadre? Does the addition of the big guys change things up? Will these dataslates change what some feel is a very stale metagame?
Both stores have plenty of WM/H stuff, including those Convergence blisters. ;)
I plan to get all of the dataslates once they're released and have them in Plainville.
Some events will allow them all. Some won't. Some will allow Escalation stuff. Some won't. Some will allow both. Etc. Etc.
There's plenty of upside here. There's also "potential for downside."
At this point I think it's going to be pretty hard to persuade me to change from:
Once in a while we'll host a tournament that is essentially a primer for some bigger event. We will use (most of) their rules and their scenarios if at all possible.
When we're not running an event that is somehow tied to something bigger I'm going to do whatever I think...
1) Might be fun given the community where the event is held
2) Is different than something we've done in recent memory at that location
Giving people an opportunity to field more models, different models, models they never get to use, and maybe even NEW models more often is something I'm interested in, so long as the players in a particular event are having a good time.
Most events aren't for everyone, and I think breaking away from a "cookie cutter" type event schedule is probably best for the store and the community.
If only the new year was coming soon.... Hmm.....
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How does something like a Baneblade stack up against the Tau broadside / riptide Cadre? Does the addition of the big guys change things up? Will these dataslates change what some feel is a very stale metagame?
Both stores have plenty of WM/H stuff, including those Convergence blisters. ;)
I plan to get all of the dataslates once they're released and have them in Plainville.
Some events will allow them all. Some won't. Some will allow Escalation stuff. Some won't. Some will allow both. Etc. Etc.
,
There's plenty of upside here. There's also "potential for downside."
At this point I think it's going to be pretty hard to persuade me to change from:
Once in a while we'll host a tournament that is essentially a primer for some bigger event. We will use (most of) their rules and their scenarios if at all possible.
When we're not running an event that is somehow tied to something bigger I'm going to do whatever I think...
1) Might be fun given the community where the event is held
2) Is different than something we've done in recent memory at that location
Giving people an opportunity to field more models, different models, models they never get to use, and maybe even NEW models more often is something I'm interested in, so long as the players in a particular event are having a good time.
Most events aren't for everyone, and I think breaking away from a "cookie cutter" type event schedule is probably best for the store and the community.
If only the new year was coming soon.... Hmm.....
Superheavies and super fortifications die easy to massed melta fire or assault. We won't know how superheavies will effect the game until the expansion hits Saturday and we find out if D weapons are getting needed in regular 40k
The tau cadre dataslate is ideal for light to medium armor killing basicly putting a LOT of missiles where ever you want them
It's not like it's an auto include though, 600 points is a lot in an 1850 or smaller game
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The problem with the Tau Cadre is there's jsut no opportunity cost to using them. Yeah, it's 600 pts, but it's better than whatever heavy fire support unit you main codex has (which is fine, because that's the Tau specialty, but you're supposed to have to work a little -- use your ally slot, take and HQ and a troop choice-- to get them in your army)
The Tank hunters and PE: SM is just ridiculous icing. If you're a tau player and already taking these units, why would you not take this formation instead?
I don't the Be'Lakor thing is "balanced", but it's at least flavorful, and it's not ridiculous. Likewise, I think just about everyone is looking forward to Cypher. But this Tau Cadre thing is just pointlessly more flexible and powerful, for no good reason.
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I've had a chance to look over the new Dataslate.
Over all it isn't busted.
First, I can't see non-Tau players taking it. It's just too many points and it needs other parts of the Tau Codex to support it.
What it does is fix a problem in the new Tau Codex.
And before everyone says I'm crazy lets look at the new Tau Codex and what came out of it:
Riptides, Overwatch/Supporting Fire and a Buffing Commander.
Some solid choices. What went away was the ability to pop armor.
Tau use to be the masters of busting armor. 10/1 guns with a range of table. That went away.
Now the best they have is overpriced (compared to marines) meltaguns and the Ordnance Riptide gun you take a risk with (Nova-Reactor) using.
Land Raiders will demolish Tau. AV 14 use to be a challenge to pop, now with Tau it's highly difficult. This Dataslate just puts some tank killing back in the hands of the Tau.
And overall it was way better put together than the Inquisition one.
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First, I can't see non-Tau players taking it. It's just too many points and it needs other parts of the Tau Codex to support it.
If I were just trying to win, I'd probably put it in most of my armies and just check off the "fire support" and "anti-aircraft" boxes on my lists of concerns.
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I've had a chance to look over the new Dataslate.
Over all it isn't busted.
First, I can't see non-Tau players taking it. It's just too many points and it needs other parts of the Tau Codex to support it.
What it does is fix a problem in the new Tau Codex.
And before everyone says I'm crazy lets look at the new Tau Codex and what came out of it:
Riptides, Overwatch/Supporting Fire and a Buffing Commander.
Some solid choices. What went away was the ability to pop armor.
Tau use to be the masters of busting armor. 10/1 guns with a range of table. That went away.
Now the best they have is overpriced (compared to marines) meltaguns and the Ordnance Riptide gun you take a risk with (Nova-Reactor) using.
Land Raiders will demolish Tau. AV 14 use to be a challenge to pop, now with Tau it's highly difficult. This Dataslate just puts some tank killing back in the hands of the Tau.
And overall it was way better put together than the Inquisition one.
Um, Wut? First of all, you can already get tank hunters with buff commander. Ordinance is not the same as, but very similar to tank hunters also. Additionally, tank hunters in no way aides str 7 missiles in taking out LRs, and it only helps Str 8 guns a little, not enough.
Lastly, Tau do fine against LRs, just not the sapmmy str 7 all these newbie tau players want to tak these days. I have hammerheads and fusion, I do ok against LRs. (onager gauntlet, Farsight, and assaulting with Riptides are also good last ditch solutions)
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Most events aren't for everyone, and I think breaking away from a "cookie cutter" type event schedule is probably best for the store and the community.
For what it's worth, non-cookie-cutter events (500pt tourneys, team tourneys, whatever kooky thing you want to do) are probably what I'm gonna be most interested in 40k wise, going forward I think.
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I just don't want every Broadside unit to have tankhunters, and broadsides in armies that really have no business with them. I think that lessens the game.
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Most events aren't for everyone, and I think breaking away from a "cookie cutter" type event schedule is probably best for the store and the community.
It's like you're in my brain.
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Chase, I'm always interested in teaching people Warmachine. ;)
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Chase, I'm always interested in teaching people Warmachine. ;)
Love it! :D
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Today's dataslate is :
2 stormtalons and a Stormraven (outside FOC)
The stormraven gets strafing run and both talons can escort it at the same time.
Not nearly as earth shattering as the Broadside one.
Although, my friend who only plays Space Wolves might enjoy it, he always complains about lack of flyers and now, he can have 3 of the pretty good flyers without needing to run any regular marines.
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Oh and... I guess marines can now run a stormraven plus 3 thunderfire cannons while still allying in some Tau or something (lots of marine players run 2 storm talons anyway). Getting a small boost to their flyers.
I guess my take is, if this is useful to anyone, it's something they shouldn't be able to do. Grump.
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Yeah, well, that's the thing, why should you be able to add it for free? Why do you get special abilities for free?
I sure wouldn't mind using my Stormraven with my Tau....and I could, just by taking GK allies. But I don't, because I'd rather take farsight allies. So, taking the GK (or SM) is a cost, a cost I don't want to pay.
And a BS 5 Stormraven, jeez! Who wouldn't want that?
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Well, I was thinking that for a StormRaven, the BS boost wouldn't matter as much, b/c it's already bs4 and its guns are mostly twin-linked. For a twin-linked gun that's only about a 8% increase in accuracy (35/36 hits at BS5 versus 32/36 hits at BS4). But, the missiles being BS5 is significant... yeah... frowny face.
To put it in perspective though, giving Tank Hunters to broadsides makes them a whopping 50% more effective when shooting at anything av11, and 60% more effective when shooting at av12. Preferred enemy makes them around 25-35% more effective when shooting at marines on foot (depending on gun choice).
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How bout this list:
2 Rune priests with Jaws
2 or 3 Squads grey hunters in pods
Coteaz
Divination Inquisitor /w/ server skulls, psycannon
3 scoring acolyte units, maybe give 2 some servitors for the inquisitors to sit in?
2 units of 3 tank hunting / PE broadsides
1 tank hunting / PE Riptide
2 stormtalons
1 BS5 stormraven
.....
I haven't used my allied detachment yet... can someone think of a useful way to have an allied detachment, inquisition, broadsides and flyer detachments?
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I like it, I really do, all the stupidity in one place.
Needs something better for Coteaz to use his prescience with, though, as well as "I have been expecting you".
I predict there'll be a Centurion Formation, and they'll all get Ignore cover for free. Then your list will be complete.
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To have Inquistion forces scoring they have to be your allies not supplemets :)
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To have Inquistion forces scoring they have to be your allies not supplemets :)
Not if you have Coteaz :) He makes them scoring no matter what.
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Ahh NM then
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How bout this list:
2 Rune priests with Jaws
2 or 3 Squads grey hunters in pods
Coteaz
Divination Inquisitor /w/ server skulls, psycannon
3 scoring acolyte units, maybe give 2 some servitors for the inquisitors to sit in?
2 units of 3 tank hunting / PE broadsides
1 tank hunting / PE Riptide
2 stormtalons
1 BS5 stormraven
.....
I haven't used my allied detachment yet... can someone think of a useful way to have an allied detachment, inquisition, broadsides and flyer detachments?
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think that's kind of awesome. If it was painted up really well I'm sure it would look pretty damn cool on the table.
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I can't believe I'm saying this, but I think that's kind of awesome. If it was painted up really well I'm sure it would look pretty damn cool on the table.
:( I think people walking by would think there was a 4x4 team game going on. I dig the "unifying aesthetic" aspect of a well-presented army. It would be hard to have a unifying aesthetic for all that, without just doing a bunch of counts-as models. (And if you're using a counts-as army, it's irrelelevant which codexes the models are supposed to represent, it will LOOK just as cool or stupid regardless).
And, if this type of thing becomes popular, what will REALLY happen is that people will just buy 6 broadsides, 12 drones, and a riptide, and put those SAME models into all the different armies where they want to use them. So that's throwing "unifying aesthetic" right out the window.
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I would even go so far as to say that this type of supplement actively penalizes beautiful armies, since by taking your own army's version of long range power instead of the freely available Tau broadsides (Tau specialize in this), you are consciously sacrificing effectiveness because you don't want to figure out how to make Broadsides somehow look like they fit into your army.
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Look, the Inquisition codex actually has a lot of fluff justification. You should be able to have basically any imperial army run by some inquisitors.
There's cool guy, Andre, he has an army that is basically only Inquisition and stromtroopers. That's what he thinks his cool. Didn't like Coteaz, which was basically the only way to play that army, so he was pretty ticked when the GK codex came out. Inquisition codex let's him play that.
I have both Coteaz and Karazamov. I also have a lot of marines, converted to look like GK, cuz guess what, I really do just like knights. I'm pretty sure I can make a fairly fluffy, cool looking list with a combination of GK, "Grey Knight" marine bikers, and Karazmov dropping orbital bombardments on the Chpater master with the shield that just don't care.
That's all good stuff. But the codex is still a copy& paste hack job, and letting everyone take COteaz just because they felt like it isn't a great idea.
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So it seems they're about to update the digital version of the StormWing dataslate. Someone asked, "Hmm, isn't it weird that I can buy a stormraven but that I can't put any marines inside it"? Which prompted an update to cover that totally edge-case scenario.
Maybe soon they'll do another update that covers what happens when you ally in multiple detachments that aren't all battle brothers with each other (another total edge case I guess).
Over-under on testing games anyone at GW played with any of these supplements before shipping: zero. These questions simply would have come up with any testing at all.
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So todays release is fluff for Trigrus? Or did I miss something
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OK... lolololol.
The new 11th company podcast came out and it's pretty classic.
We were missing something. There is no restriction that you can only take one copy of each of these dataslates.
So this 1850 list is legal:
Inquisitor
3 scoring acotyte units
18 tank hunting, PE broadsides
3 tank hunting, PE riptides
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Today's datasheet is a Centurion formation. However its the assault variant and only for Apocalypse so sorry Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves players no grav weapons for you.
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Oh, this, THIS is for apocalypse only?
Wtf.
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Oh, this, THIS is for apocalypse only?
Wtf.
What? Just use Apocalypse if you want Grey Centurions.
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Specifically, I can't see why this is apoc only but the Tua firebase was fine for everybody. It's not like I expected it to make sense, but I still get shocked sometimes by the anti-sense.
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Yeah... lower your expectations my friend. They don't test the stuff, don't proofread the stuff, don't think much about the stuff.
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Today's is the Ruclusiam Command Squad which consists of a Chaplain and a Space Marine command squad. So it looks like Space Wolves, Dark Angels, and Blood Angels get their grav weapons now. And I suppose Space Marine players can have 4to command squads (4 if you take space marine allied detachment? ). Grav bikers for everyone!!!