Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Benjamin on July 02, 2012, 11:09:55 PM
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I thought this would be a good opportunity to collect in one thread the community's preferences regarding the next official BG Warhammer tournament. The Megabattle takes a slot, then the Feast of Blades event.
I want to know where people are leaning, because as you have lots to digest learning a new system, there's even more effort in creating fun and challenging missions that don't rely on narrative ass-hattery or random rolls.
We have lots of new options to consider, and many degrees by which they could be applied. New missions, Warlord traits, Fortresses and of course, Allies. I want to hear it all, so spitball away!
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I'd like to see something generic (like 1750 or 1850) with whatever rules seem "good" or something wacky like 500 points v6.0
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I would want the 500 Point tournament to be soon, within the next two Singles events. I just don't know if players would prefer the first tournament to be that or a bigger, balls-to-the-wall tournament.
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I sort of think people will want to experiment with allies and other 6e shenanigans at first, but we'll see...
500 points, while obviously awesome, doesn't allow for much room to mess with different lists / allies / units.
The people have not yet spoken, however... ;)
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I want at least one tournament with all the nonsense. Allies, flyers, two FOCs, fortifications, everything. If the feast of blades scratches that itch, then fine.
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I've been wanting a 2k tournament all year, but now with all the new 6E rules (especially the double force org chart at the 2k+ level) i'd rather do something in the 1500-1750 range.
Like Chase said a 500pt tournament doesn't give enough room to try out allies, flyers or much of anything really
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1750-2000 no restrictions, plz.
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1750-2000 no restrictions, plz.
+1
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There's a significant difference between 1750 and 2000 points, with the FOC doubling at 2000.
So you have to pick one or the other. :) People saying whole hog, that to me says 2000.
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1750-2000 no restrictions, plz.
You mean, like play the rules according to the rules? ;)
EDIT:
I'm not being a smart ass but isn't 6th edition come with all these rules and ignoring allies and flyers a lot like saying "ignore the rules for dangerous terrain because I don't like it"?
Allies, flyers and everything else contained in that book is how 6th edition is meant to be played. Removing those rules will definitely have impacts on the newer codicies that were built with 6th in mind as well as 6th edition codecies coming up.
So why make house rules when we already have a pretty clear, clean set of rules?
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I would like to point out the 2nd FOC almost exclusively helps the older, less powerful codexes. The new codexes mostly have good selections in every slot, and very good troops. Tyranids, Tau, and Eldar tend to have good picks stuffed in a heavy and elite selections, so a second FOC helps them all out.
So just remember, when you cry about the 2nd FOC, you're stomping on a nid player, again. A Gk player doesn't care much.
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In 5th edition we all DID just "ignore the rules for buildings because we don't like it". Everybody just collectively decided that buildings were a pain in the butt and to treat them as impassible terrain - blatantly against the rulebook. Also, tournaments did change to migrate away from the missions in the book, I haven't seen too many "capture and control" in tournaments in the past year or so.
So, I don't think there's a problem with a tournament tweaking the rules so that they work better.
However, I agree that we shouldn't knock things like allies, flyers, etc until we've tried them. They're very different from the old rules so it's hard to really tell whether they balance against each other and whether they're fun. Too early to start messing with what we have in the rulebook.
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Anyway, as for my vote, I am concerned that if we try to play 2k games with a new (and apparently slower) ruleset, without changing the time limits, we will have a LOT of games ending on turn 3.
I'd vote for 1500, but with flyers and fortifications and allies. Then move the point level up once people get used to the new rules, and IF it looks like the game will be as fast as the old game.
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Having the FOC double generally helps people who have been playing longer as they have more stuff. It also helps more point efficient codex's, which are usually not the older or xenos codexs.
I can't even come close to filling out my FOC for tyranids at 2000 points unless I deliberately make a bad list to do only that.
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I thought every nid player wanted some mix of 18 hive guard and zoanthropes?
Oh, btw, for the love of god, do not do any "mysterious" terrain or objectives.
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I thought every nid player wanted some mix of 18 hive guard and zoanthropes?
Oh, btw, for the love of god, do not do any "mysterious" terrain or objectives.
Yeah, that sounds awesome, why would I already own 18? Since I've never been able to take more than 9 before?
Sure, I'll go drop 180 dollars assuming that we will stick at 2000 points and I will always get to play it.
They do the same rules with Fantasy when you hit 3000 points, no one ever plays it.
I think keeping things with a single FOC is a good idea for the first event.
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I want at least one tournament with all the nonsense. Allies, flyers, two FOCs, fortifications, everything. If the feast of blades scratches that itch, then fine.
I will 2nd this, these new additions are what make 6th, 6th. Without flyers, allies, forts, 2 FOC charts well then we might as well all go back to playing 5th lol. However for the first 6th ed tournement I wouldn't mind something like 1500-1850 pts just to help make things easier to manage.
I played Eldar in 4th ed, and Dark Eldar in 5th. Now in 6th I can play both at once instead of having one army sit around collecting dust. Now when I buy different models/codex I definately get more bang for my buck. I am really excited to play my " Pirates of the Webway" list.
Btw Chase, can you make sure you have some Wraithguard and Rangers in stock? My (Dark) Eldar Pirates will need reinforcements ;P
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Warhams?
OK. I don't normally tease about bad spellings...
But is there a new Pork army that everyone can ally with?
Everyone does know that pork with cheese isn't quite kosher?
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Concerns of mine:
Length of each game.
Not confusing people people who don't fully understand everything yet.
Still allowing people to experiment with the new rules / stuff.
Everyone having a good time.
We have the Feast of Blades qualifier on August 4th. That is a 2000 point event. I haven't heard anything about what they plan to do, but I'd imagine it will not have any restrictions.
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I love double battles but thats just me. I also share Chase's concern
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a few things you might consider.
fortifications according to the rules are supposed to be placed first before any other terrain. to ensure that it fits and to give your opponent a chance to place other terrain in a way as to allow them to more easily deal with it. in a tournament the tables tend to be built by the store and are unlikely to leave huge holes for a fortress of redeption to fit.
and mysterious terrain and objectives well fun in a general game haveing them change battle by battle at a tournament might be a bit of a concern to tournament balance. I would suggest useing them but having BG choose or roll for each piece of terrain and or objective before the tournament starts and attach a post it note or some other thing to the bottom of a easily moveable terrain piece (like one of those loose trees or rocks) telling the players who move into that area what exactly the effect is.
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I dont see too many people investing in and lugging around terrain with them, other than the aegis line is small and cheap, the landing pad would give a huge advantage to reserve armies. But i doubt many people will show up with a fortress of redemption
Hell maybe BG should rent out their bastion, landing pad, fortress and certain other terrain if people really want them, first come first served!
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Um, I happen to have 2 bastions. And they're not any bigger than my Storm raven, frankly.
If you don't allow people to bring fortifications, you have to disallow flyers, that's all their is to it.
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I think fortification should be allowed, but like librarian said it will certainly affect the normal way tournaments go at plainville.
Up untill now the terrian is pre set by the BG staff and isnt moved throught the day, but with the new rules how is that going to work?
And BG usually uses a large amount of GW terrian that is now in ths books for a set point value, so what should they do with all that stuff?
Not use it?
Rent it out to players to use?
Put it out on certain tables and let players try to contest it? Interesting but depending on on placement it will likely give whatever player gets to it first a huge advantage.
But unfortuently with the balance issues right now, (like the non existant flakk missile upgrades) the only 2 options to deal with flyers are either flyers of your own (which some codexes having no such options) or fortifications with skyfire weapons.
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It's pretty simple. I don't recall too many boards that didn't have room to plunk down a Bastion. (actually, the bastion might have the smallest foot print)
I would argue that things are reversed, players just have to fit their terrain where there's space. But, space should be left!
For the things that are on the board, you can either count them how we always have (ruins or impassable, mostly) or use the "dilapidated" rule. I favor the later, actually. It's interesting, and frankly a low (-2) av building is not a place you want to be. (units inside can take a LOT of damage).
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First and most importantly, Warhams *is* a thing.
(http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee73/ratbarf/WorldofWarhams.jpg)
Time is really my biggest concern. There will be a greater amount of time going over and explaining rules, even in basic games. 2.5 hours will be needed per game I think in our first event. That said, there were still players at the end of 5e who struggled with basic concepts and played slow. (I'm looking at you, Benjamin. Wait a second, that's me I'm talking about. Oh nice, you're typing out loud too.) So we move forward and hope everyone can catch up.
The terrain/fortification issue is problematic. Letting tournament players place their own terrain could be in certain situations... a challenging proposition.
Page 8 from the BRB is my go-to from now until, well, forever.
Above all, it's important to remember that the rules are just the framework to support an enjoyable game... Your job isn't just to follow the rules, it's to add your own ideas, drama and creativity to the game. Much of this appeal of this game lies in the freedom and open-endedness that this allows; it is in this spirit that the rules have been written.
Many people here are asking for a bigger game under 2000 and that's quite reasonable. We have lots of options, and I'm sure BG will eventually cover them all.
Someone mentioned Doubles tournaments... oof. That's a headache already.
What does everyone think of the Warlord upgrades so far?
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The Invitational requires us to run another Doubles event. I am sort of looking forward to figuring this out. That should be fun.
As far as fortifications go, I plan to allow them all save maybe the Fortress of Redemption (due to it's size alone). I have no intention of allowing players to place their own terrain in a tournament held at the store, despite what the rulebook says.
We're about to get a test run on all this with the Feast of Blades event. Fortunately, I get to pull an "Ard Boyz" type attitude and blame everything that people don't like on them. Matt and I will build tables and keep score, Sam will ref it, and Matt will do everything else.
I may tell Derek I'd like to go to NOVA just to get some first hand experience with how they do things.
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Ben that brought a smile to my face. I see how they say you are the "me" of plainsville. I know chase is already burning my pictures and hanging up yours its ok.
any way I really enjoy doubles mainly cause I think the new allies matrix will be cool to determine what armies can pair with who and make people come up with creative narritives on why certain armies are working together.
I dont know thats just my 2 cents im probably as usual wrong or ignored.
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There's a couple different ways to tackle doubles.
1) Two players with two armies. Each army could use Allies, meaning there could be a total of 4 different codices on one side of the table, or eight codices between the two sides. This is... interesting.
2) Two players, one unified force, disregarding Allies Detachment FOC for the version we've used before. We could still apply the Levels of Alliance. If you and your partner are Desperate Allies (Queasy Acquaintances), your team will have to keep, at a minimum, One Eye Open.
3) Two players, each playing from only within their own codex. No Allies rules at all. This would function nearly identical to the 5th Edition version BG has been running.
Downsides. 1 could potentially be a logistical nightmare and army lists would have to be turned in sooner than usual. 2 comp-like restrictions. 3 Boring! :)
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I don't see the problem with #1 actually. What further complications does that add?
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Hmm,
option 1 works, that means nids are still nids but they can team with a non-nid player. Just qualify them as desperate for the proximity rule and basically be enemies you can't shoot.
There's some more pieces to wrap into there for sure but it could be entertaining and the doubles matches are supposed to be that way.
Cheers,
Alan
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Downsides. 1 could potentially be a logistical nightmare and army lists would have to be turned in sooner than usual.
I'm not really sure how it would be a logistical nighmare, it would still be player 1 vs player 2.
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For starters, do we apply Levels of Alliance across 4 codices? This also places a larger burden on the staff (Sam) who thoroughly check the army lists.
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I'm not sure I see the complication. Graham (nid player) and I make a team. Graham is stuck with his loan self, cuz everyone hates bugs, and I (cuz, y'know, imperial is better) can add in most things.
Everything else is exactly the same. If I had any battle brothers, they would be battle brothers to me, not Graham. Allies of convenience are pretty much how doubles treat each others armies anyway. "unholy alliance", if say, I picked DE, would presumably only apply to me as well.
For extra fun, if you wanted, you could apply the matrix between teams, treating "can't ally" as the unholy alliance. I don't think this represents any extra book keeping for Sam, as I'm sure one's opponents will be more than willing to enforce it.
But I don't really recommend that, cuz frankly, tyranid players have had a bad enough run of it. People will want to know why tyrnaids can be on any team with anybody at all, yadda yadda, and besides, I'm selfish, my main bud plains tyranids.
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Yes... it would be really harsh to tell a guy who only owns nids "Sorry, you can't play in the team tournament unless you can find another nid player".
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armies can't ally with themselves either.
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Truth is, I can't really see me doing allies at 1250.
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It's not all about you matt. ;)
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That's it. Nids can never play in team tournaments. I'm calling it now.
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I am strongly considering just moving on to another army already....
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What?!? But now is your time! Flyrants! 16 crazy ass psychics in one army! No fearless wounds! Broodlords that take Iron arm or some such and hulk out on the enemy!
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Flyrants are a 3+ save with 4 wounds. getting wounded on 4+(at worst generally) by things that hit them, not to mention everyone being able to use grenades in CC now against them.
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Well, you can cry about how weak it is, but I'm scared to death of it, frankly. Just fly high and cherry pick all day, unless I get lucky.
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That is only because you haven't thought about it.
1 psyrifleman dread.
4 shots, twin linked. Hit on sixes, reroll misses. First of all, you have a 2/3 chance that you will get one hit, before rerolls. Assuming you don't, you still have a 2/3 chance to get one hit with the reroll. Then I have a 1/3 chance to fall down, and basically take a wound. Then your army rapes me. I am only down 230~ point! sweet.
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I have thought about it. I think it worked out to 1.2 "6's" on average. So 1/3 chance of you crashing, so there's about 40% chance of you crashing.
I was about to say you could jink, but I don't think that remove the fact you've been hit, so nevermind.
You're right, that's kinda nasty but I'm not sure I'd go with the idea that you're just dead after that. Tyrants managed to survive getting shot at before, and I think we'll see less missle launchers everywhere after this.
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That is only because you haven't thought about it.
1 psyrifleman dread.
4 shots, twin linked. Hit on sixes, reroll misses. First of all, you have a 2/3 chance that you will get one hit, before rerolls. Assuming you don't, you still have a 2/3 chance to get one hit with the reroll. Then I have a 1/3 chance to fall down, and basically take a wound. Then your army rapes me. I am only down 230~ point! sweet.
I actually got lucky last night and knocked a flying Nid down with the 3 twin linked guns on my LRC in the first turn (he landed next to draigo, good times). That being said if it was a flyer and not a flying mc (that cant be knocked out of the sky, just blown up) my list didnt have anything to deal with flyers with an armor value.
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It would be fine if nids had other decent fliers than the Flying hive tyrant. Harpies are not strong enough, so you can just basically ignore them until everything else is dead.
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Can this be the start of "ForgeWorld allowed in regular tourneys"?
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_AERONAUTICA.html
With forgeworld, perhaps the inequality of access to flyers / Skyfire weapons will be solved.
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It would be fine if nids had other decent fliers than the Flying hive tyrant. Harpies are not strong enough, so you can just basically ignore them until everything else is dead.
I dunno, harpy's vector strike will still be ap3, and they have good guns. I'd take them.
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Can this be the start of "ForgeWorld allowed in regular tourneys"?
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_AERONAUTICA.html
With forgeworld, perhaps the inequality of access to flyers / Skyfire weapons will be solved.
no, that's an entirely different (failed, mostly) game system, like battlefleet gothic. (I like BG, tho)
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did you click the link...?
The harpy is T5 with a 4+ save and 4 wounds....
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oh, I think I got that confused with Aeronatutica Imperialis, sorry.
And yes, about the harpy, I know.
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Flying monsterous creature i dont worry about, i have lots of fire warriors to hit em w/, then broadsides hit em while they r down. Vendettas on the other hand....im going to be hoping with broadsides.
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I want to get that new forge world book...wait cant BG order them now?
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I want to get that new forge world book...wait cant BG order them now?
Not usually.
What's the name of it?
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I betcha he's referring to http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_AERONAUTICA.html
Chase, I believe GW distributors can purchase FW stuff through them, but I suppose your rep would know. It'd be nice to funnel money through the store, rather than the dirty internets.
I have a bit of a FW sweet tooth myself.
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I'd love to be able to get most / all of the FW books.
For a small period of time some of them were available. It doesn't look like they are now. My rep was out today so I'll add it to the laundry list of things I've got to talk to him about.
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I'm in favor of adding Forge World options at a later date for other tournaments. But for now, learning the new ruleset and making a good first event is daunting enough.
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is it possible to order that book for Abington?
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is it possible to order that book for Abington?
It is likely that ordering ANY of the IA books through GW is impossible once again.