Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Bill on July 01, 2012, 01:37:52 AM
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Just curious on people's experience so far with 6th edition. Thoughts, ideas, lists, whatever you want. Please no rants on OMG this is broken it is just far too early for rants on anything.
So this is what I have been testing. Have three games under my belt as the moment and so far very happy with most of the rules so far and I feel like my precious daemons SHOULD be ok to play but overall lost quite a bit of power but not taking fearless wounds is going a long way.
CSM w/ Daemon Detachment: Single Force Org
CSM:
Daemon Prince: MoS, Wings, Sorcerer, Lash of Submission
Daemon Prince: MoS, Wings, Sorcerer, Lash of Submission
7 Plague Marines: Personal Icon, 2x Plasma Guns
7 Plague Marines: Personal Icon, 2x Plasma Guns
5 Plague Marines: Personal Icon, 2x Plasma Guns
2 Obliterators
2 Obliterators
Daemons:
Bloodthirster: Blessing of the Blood God, Unholy Might
8 Blood Crushers
9 Nurglings
8 Screamers of Tzeentch
The only underachiever in each game so far has been the bloodcrusher. Losing the closest model for that unit with the base size is just crippling, every model that dies moves the unit back 3" so the issue may just be how I am using the unit. I might try flamers but I am having trouble paying 35 points per model when crushers are 40 but flamers put a hurting on terminators which is what this list needs.
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So, the icons work for the daemons, right?
Weird to see lash of submission back but the fear of vehicles plays right into your hands.
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Craziest change for me was how quickly my Thunderhammers smashed a Land Raider. 4 glances, don't even to roll damage. Four 6's and wrecked! Hull points just hurt vehicles so much, or at least it seems so to me. I would always rolls those 1s and 2s on the vehicle damage chart and have it mean nothing; now I'm winning!
Not taking No Retreat! wounds is a wild thing.
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Bill,
After playtesting a few games and watching a few, I think that demons will be fine, but I think the route to go is banking on lash/pavane and flying MCs. I had a similar list, but in reverse heres a rough idea of what was going on for 2,000 points:
HQ
The masque
Tzeentch chariot w/ the works
Fateweaver
troops
5 horrors w/ bolt x6
heavy
3x tzeentch princes - fully loaded
CSM detatchment
lash prince
chosen x5 w/ meltagun x5
PM x5 w/ 2 melta + combi melta + powerfist
PM x5 w/ 2 melta + combi melta + powerfist
havocs x5 w/ meltagun x4
My thought process: MCs with wings are too legit too quit. pavane x3 is sooooo good because I get to pull what I want closer and push the rest back, but on three units. Lash helps with what you realised (the loss of ground to new allocation) and pins something (maybe). We were unsure of whether detatchments followed codex rules or not so for now we have been playing that the csm go in the waves (makes sense fluff wise). Everything worked well, other than the pink horrors, which were hit/miss. One game I dropped a few upgrades to get a landing pad, but it didn't seem all that effective... Personally I think flying MCs will dominate the meta. one game vs mech BA was awesome, vehicles either really do suck, or I am just the melta master. For now I am going to go with I am the melta master. Swooping wizards kick ass.
Hope that helps
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Seems once again Khorne MCs get the shaft.
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Personally, the whole flying thing is starting to bother me. To hard to fight.
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Seems once again Khorne MCs get the shaft.
Str 8 Vector Strikes are the bees knees IMO.
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Bill,
After playtesting a few games and watching a few, I think that demons will be fine, but I think the route to go is banking on lash/pavane and flying MCs. I had a similar list, but in reverse heres a rough idea of what was going on for 2,000 points:
HQ
The masque
Tzeentch chariot w/ the works
Fateweaver
troops
5 horrors w/ bolt x6
heavy
3x tzeentch princes - fully loaded
CSM detatchment
lash prince
chosen x5 w/ meltagun x5
PM x5 w/ 2 melta + combi melta + powerfist
PM x5 w/ 2 melta + combi melta + powerfist
havocs x5 w/ meltagun x4
My thought process: MCs with wings are too legit too quit. pavane x3 is sooooo good because I get to pull what I want closer and push the rest back, but on three units. Lash helps with what you realised (the loss of ground to new allocation) and pins something (maybe). We were unsure of whether detatchments followed codex rules or not so for now we have been playing that the csm go in the waves (makes sense fluff wise). Everything worked well, other than the pink horrors, which were hit/miss. One game I dropped a few upgrades to get a landing pad, but it didn't seem all that effective... Personally I think flying MCs will dominate the meta. one game vs mech BA was awesome, vehicles either really do suck, or I am just the melta master. For now I am going to go with I am the melta master. Swooping wizards kick ass.
Hope that helps
I agree with everything you have here I eventually want to do a mix between what you have and what I am running, so far my build is working and unless I start seeing like 4-5 fliers I should be ok with what I have for now. I have alot of work to do before NOVA, I know that.
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Yeah I made up a Daemons list with a CSM lash prince allied in as well... Lash & Pavane do seem ridiculously powerful, if one goes off it becomes very easy to then snipe all of the combat/special weapons out of the squad.
I guess deny the witch does make it a little more fair though.... even against a squad with no specific psychic defense, first you have to pass your psychic test, then you have to hit with the shot, then they have to fail Deny the Witch.
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Sooo.... if you take a mixed Daemon + CSM army, it seems rather ambiguous whether the Daemons from the Daemon codex are allowed to use Personal Icons from the Chaos Space Marine codex. Although from a fluff perspective, they're the same thing, they do have 2 different names, and RAW, a Daemon would certainly not be able to use a Personal Icon.
Here's a quote from the CSM codex: "Note that Icons only work for models In Terminator Armour, Obliterators and Lesser Daemons".
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oh did I mis-read? A Blood Thirster can do vector strikes? I thought they can only perform shooting attacks?
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Hmm,
It seems that CSM Daemons Princes are "Jump Monstrous Creatures", not "Flying Monstrous Creatures". That seems huge, amiright Bill? Still haven't gotten a game in :(
Just from theoryhammer, it would seem that the core rules SHOULD have given Daemons a huge boost...
1) No such thing as fearless wounds anymore.
2) Reserves come in on a 3+, 3+, automatic now.
3) Deep strike mishaps are nowhere near as bad as they used to be.
4) It's very easy to hit enemy vehicles in assault now.
In my experience in 5th, those were 4 of the biggest problems that Daemons had to deal with, and they all either went away or got way less problematic.
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Sooo.... if you take a mixed Daemon + CSM army, it seems rather ambiguous whether the Daemons from the Daemon codex are allowed to use Personal Icons from the Chaos Space Marine codex. Although from a fluff perspective, they're the same thing, they do have 2 different names, and RAW, a Daemon would certainly not be able to use a Personal Icon.
There's no ambiguity. Two different things are two different things. You really cannot listen to the voice that says, "But it makes fluff sense!" There are neither Lesser Daemons nor Greater Daemons in the CD codex, so there are no units from the CD codex that can use CSM icons.
Now... I don't have my CD codex in front of me, seems to have gone missing. But if I remember the wording correctly, all friendly units can use CD Icons. So if I'm remembering that part correctly, I believe CSM units like Terminators and Oblits as Battle Brothers would be able to use Chaos Daemon Icons.
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Personally, the whole flying thing is starting to bother me. To hard to fight.
Post your army list so we can help you.
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Ben, you're dead on with the Chaos Daemons icons.
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I would agree that, without a mention in the FAQ, we have no choice but to say that Personal Icons can't be used by anything from the Daemon codex. But, this is the type of thing that they sometimes FAQ so that it "matches up", and I'm kind of suprised that they didn't.
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Ben, you're dead on with the Chaos Daemons icons.
Pair of lollerskates!
Separate, but hilarious still. From what we had read to that point, we do believe it's possible with the right set up and the right dice, for one Flyer to crash into another and that second flyer to crash into a third and so on, causing a chain reaction of Str 10 detonations across the battlefield.
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Ok so a Deamon Prince with wings cant fly but a Blood Thirster can? And when it does it can make vectored strikes? Am I getting this right?
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CSM daemon princes cannot fly. Chaos Daemon daemon princes can.
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wow that makes no sence since they are practicly the same thing :o Can Blood Thirsters and their special versions and Lords of Change and their special versions fly? Just sayen if Fate Weaver can fly he can pew pew psy shots as he flies that just makes him more awsome.
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Why are you asking this in every thread?
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cause no one is giving me a clear answer?
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cause no one is giving me a clear answer?
You should call Games Workshop and see if you can get a clear answer from them. ::)
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Melta spam and flying MCs, what else can a bro need?
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Melta spam and flying MCs, what else can a bro need?
More Bikes!
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wow that makes no sence since they are practicly the same thing :o Can Blood Thirsters and their special versions and Lords of Change and their special versions fly? Just sayen if Fate Weaver can fly he can pew pew psy shots as he flies that just makes him more awsome.
The simple answer is points cost. A daemon prince for CSM is almost half the price with everything one would want than the same for daemons and the quality is the same. Greater daemons in the daemon book are twice the cost. As to why they felt the need to address this now and not in 5th I would have to guess just purely based on the flying monstrous creature rules.
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The simple answer is points cost. A daemon prince for CSM is almost half the price with everything one would want than the same for daemons and the quality is the same. Greater daemons in the daemon book are twice the cost. As to why they felt the need to address this now and not in 5th I would have to guess just purely based on the flying monstrous creature rules.
This sounds like a good enough answer, for now.
Players keep talking about the Legion codices coming out and perhaps then things will be different, but with all the other books rumored (Eldar, Tau, Black Templar, Dark Angels), I think Chaos has a while to wait.
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Hey, dread knights are Str 10 with normal fists, now, that's something.
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Still don't think Dreadknights are S10 with fists. Doesn't make any sesne and completely nullifies the daemon hammer they can get for 10 points.
Matt what have you been running in your test games and what have you been playing against. I think your semi usual list is much better suited than a mech spam Gk list is currently to dealing with all comers (minus fliers).
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They clearly do....the only reason it didn't work previously, was DCCW description said "Dreadnoughts with Dreadnought close combat weapons double their Str." That stipulation has been removed.
I would agree that hammers are now a bad buy. On the upside, you would still get +1 attack with a sword, as it's not a "specialist weapon" but still doesn't seem worth it by comparison.
I have played precisely 1 game of 6th so far. I used a Stormraven (which didn't come in until turn 4 and was promptly shot down with a lucky dark lance shot) a Bastion (which was ok, but the dmg chart is punishing to lightly armored henchmen, and you need a good BS to work the gun) and coteaz (who was fantastic)
I may want to add in some Tau allies, not sure yet, it does get expensive.
Coteaz should just always be brought, I think. He's equivalent to an upgraded SM libby for 100pts! I had the basic divination reroll power and the "objuration mechanicum" power to mess up vehicles, both were sweet.
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I have a large army of Chaos Space Marines already collected. I want to collect some Deamons since like back in the day they can bro knuckle again. That is why I am asking so many questions about the DPs and the Greater Deamons. What theme the army is going to be I keep changing my mind. At first I wanted to make it an army of Khorne then when i looked at what I have Black Legion seems a good way to go but I dunno I may just wait for a new codex.
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I have a large army of Chaos Space Marines already collected. I want to collect some Deamons since like back in the day they can bro knuckle again. That is why I am asking so many questions about the DPs and the Greater Deamons. What theme the army is going to be I keep changing my mind. At first I wanted to make it an army of Khorne then when i looked at what I have Black Legion seems a good way to go but I dunno I may just wait for a new codex.
Yeah I think you'd be crazy to plan ahead or buy new stuff right now. When the new codex drops in a month or so you're just going to start over anyway.
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I have a large army of Chaos Space Marines already collected. I want to collect some Deamons since like back in the day they can bro knuckle again. That is why I am asking so many questions about the DPs and the Greater Deamons. What theme the army is going to be I keep changing my mind. At first I wanted to make it an army of Khorne then when i looked at what I have Black Legion seems a good way to go but I dunno I may just wait for a new codex.
Yeah I think you'd be crazy to plan ahead or buy new stuff right now. When the new codex drops in a month or so you're just going to start over anyway.
agreed as much as I would like to start assembeling more and painting I dont know what the new Codex will look like.
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I'm not a 40k regular so I haven't purchased or read the rules beyond things that were spoiled online prior to the release. I am interested to find out people's opinion on a few things. The big one being the use of hull points in the vehicle rules.
From the outside - and please correct me if I'm wrong - it seems like hull points hinder that middle class of armor value the most. I would thing that if you're like a Land Speeder it doesn't matter because a Tactical Squad was going to blow you away regardless. And if you're a Land Raider you're more susceptible to things, but still pretty tough to take down. But if you're like a Dreadnought it could be lights out much more quickly.
The follow-up is that I then assume if you're going to take vehicles you need to do so in bulk more than ever -- if you do opt for vehicles of course?
I only ask because I probably won't own a book of my own until the two player box drops, but am semi-interested in the new edition and how it impacts my collections.
Thanks.
Oh and again I haven't played 40k consistently in a while so I apologize if these are dumb questions.
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I have a large army of Chaos Space Marines already collected. I want to collect some Deamons since like back in the day they can bro knuckle again. That is why I am asking so many questions about the DPs and the Greater Deamons. What theme the army is going to be I keep changing my mind. At first I wanted to make it an army of Khorne then when i looked at what I have Black Legion seems a good way to go but I dunno I may just wait for a new codex.
Yeah I think you'd be crazy to plan ahead or buy new stuff right now. When the new codex drops in a month or so you're just going to start over anyway.
agreed as much as I would like to start assembeling more and painting I dont know what the new Codex will look like.
wait for an adult to sign your permission slip.
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I've actually already started a chaos army and plan on expanding it a bit after the Megabattle.
Who cares what the new codex might change for you! You play fluffy lists anyways, just make what you want. When the new codex comes out, the only things you might change are what HQs you use or how your champions are loaded out. 90% of what you have isn't going to change from a painting/modelling perspective.
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I've actually already started a chaos army and plan on expanding it a bit after the Megabattle.
Who cares what the new codex might change for you! You play fluffy lists anyways, just make what you want. When the new codex comes out, the only things you might change are what HQs you use or how your champions are loaded out. 90% of what you have isn't going to change from a painting/modelling perspective.
I'm gonna start a CSM allied contingent too, for my Daemons. Another reason to hold off on it until the new dex drops is that the new dex will presumably come with a lot of entirely new units, better models for old units, etc. What if new Noise Marine models come out and they look amazing, and have fun rules?
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I've actually already started a chaos army and plan on expanding it a bit after the Megabattle.
Who cares what the new codex might change for you! You play fluffy lists anyways, just make what you want. When the new codex comes out, the only things you might change are what HQs you use or how your champions are loaded out. 90% of what you have isn't going to change from a painting/modelling perspective.
I'm gonna start a CSM allied contingent too, for my Daemons. Another reason to hold off on it until the new dex drops is that the new dex will presumably come with a lot of entirely new units, better models for old units, etc. What if new Noise Marine models come out and they look amazing, and have fun rules?
Get those ones too :P
I'm not saying "GO MAKE A 10,000 POINT ARMY NOW!!!", I'm just saying that if you like the army, don't be afraid to start collecting/painting now, then modifying as needed when the codex comes out.
Sure, some units will get new models when the new codex comes out, but it's not like you're never going to use the older ones ever again.
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I am perfectly fine with people building 10000 point armies now, then, and any time in between (for the record).
:)
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I have a large army of Chaos Space Marines already collected. I want to collect some Deamons since like back in the day they can bro knuckle again. That is why I am asking so many questions about the DPs and the Greater Deamons. What theme the army is going to be I keep changing my mind. At first I wanted to make it an army of Khorne then when i looked at what I have Black Legion seems a good way to go but I dunno I may just wait for a new codex.
Yeah I think you'd be crazy to plan ahead or buy new stuff right now. When the new codex drops in a month or so you're just going to start over anyway.
agreed as much as I would like to start assembeling more and painting I dont know what the new Codex will look like.
wait for an adult to sign your permission slip.
Go Troll some one else.
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So I just had my first game of 6th edition tonight. I think it's TOTALLY awesome. There seem to be many more options to consider in every situation. And most of the stuff that is supposed to be cinematic, does feel cinematic.
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Also got my first game in last night and loved it even if my list needs to get totally scrapped. That was to be expected though. Looking forward to getting more bikes and terminators put together and shelving anything with an AV :P
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It seems like I need to stock 3ish boxes of Assault Terminators and a variety of bikes. I've heard several people mention them recently.
As far as power armor armies are concerned, is this accurate?
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I would say so.
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I'd pick some assault troops (jump packs).
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Even normal terminators have gotten better, with so few close combat attacks haveing AP 2, having them equiped with power fists is not as terrible anymore now they get to strike back rather than being killed by power weapons before ever attacking.
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It seems like I need to stock 3ish boxes of Assault Terminators and a variety of bikes. I've heard several people mention them recently.
As far as power armor armies are concerned, is this accurate?
Yeah. And I wouldn't worry too much about vehicles anymore. Flyers, yes. Tanks, not so much. Seems to be where the meta is headed.
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I had a small Death Wing Army but it got messy and I got rid of it. Now that termies can kick ass again I kinda want to re-visit death wing once im moved into my condo and can afford such luxaries.
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This edition is so much fun. I got another game in today and allies have saved my Thousand Sons from being boring! Allying with a bunch of Tzeentch daemons or my traitor guard is a blast. I'm even looking to hire some Blood Axe mercenaries...
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6th is playing really for me too, of course I now have to look to other armies for some flyers for my Templars, but that's not too bad for now.
I'll be testing my Dark Angels soon too, Termies + bikes, in one army ;) could be entertaining.
Eitherway, the possibilities in this edition are amazing and I love it. Bring on the legitimization of FW lists in the community as a whole!
Cheers,
Alan
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Solo Orks have been ok, and well the DakkaJet rules...
Thinking some Necron allies with the ability to have night fighting last much longer would be a good mix.
But I think my Ravenwing army is going to be alot of fun...
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Even though my captain lost in rather epic fashion, I'm a big fan of challenges -- and this edition.
Also, Storm Talons are definitely worth it.