Battleground Games Forum
Games Workshop => Warhammer 40K => Topic started by: Benjamin on August 20, 2011, 02:41:11 PM
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This is a thread for our new, hot topic of 500 point games. Post whatever about 500 armies, be it game theory, lists or rules suggestions.
Our first concept worth discussing, a Singles tournament of 500 point armies. Can a fair event be constructed?
[Edit to add] The most important rule is that any 500 point list must still adhere to the Force Organization chart. In other words, each list must meet the 1 HQ, 2 Troops requirement.
Table size. I'm thinking 4x3'. The area definitely needs to be smaller than regulation in order to force the action. There can be two games to a table.
Time, 45 minutes per round. Keep it snappy!
Victory! I think a simple W/L format is easy here. 5 rounds can determine a single undefeated player in a field of 32 players. In the case of a mission draw, Victory Points as a default tie-breaker. In case of a draw with VPs, then it's a draw! Overall placing can also be tie-broken by VPs.
For missions, Kill Points and Victory Points, results determined by a preset margin >1. (To prevent, "Now I run away for 4 turns!") Objectives, I'm thinking a flat 3. I have to dig through the old Warhammer books for other mission ideas, some of them are very different.
With 5 matches, I think we can have a bit more fun with Deployment too. Nothing too crazy, but we can break the mold of the Big 3 a bit. The later rounds should be more traditional and proven, so that the winner is not determined by some fluke.
Models must be WYSIWYG. They do not have to be painted at all.
So, what else am I missing?
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first of all, thanks for starting this thread ben. second, i love it! but thats probably just because i am starting a new army. now for a real point, with pointiness behind it. I agree the fields should be smaller, that will mean getting into the fight, not just shooting and running, but I think that 3 ft wide isn't quite wide enough, that would basically mean both armies have to walk into each other with little room for maneuvering. how about 4x4 ft, 3 games over 2 tables?
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how about 4x4 ft, 3 games over 2 tables?
If you can think of a way to divide that up well...
Doesn't Warmachine run 4x4'? What do those guys do?
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We have to use the 6x4s, blocking off 2', because of the metal sides on the tables.
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500 points has some potential for craziness.
500 points of termies?
500 points of thunderwolf calvary?
500 points of hydras?
Also for 500 points, a painting rule would be easy for everyone involved and add something nice.
For rules, why not use an expanded kill team that Sam was running for a while?
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well, in my experience we have pushed 2 table together giving us 12 feet of table, then divide them into 3, but i just realized that with the ridges on the side of your tables that wont work. well, wed probably have enough room if we just used 4 feet of each table. It just feels like 3x4 is too small to work with, but that could also be just me.
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For rules, why not use an expanded kill team that Sam was running for a while?
Because it had too many rules and way too many restrictions for far too few figures. As it is 500 points, gives Necrons only 30 points to play with.
It'd be 500 points, still adhering to the FOC. 1 HQ, 2 Troops requirement must be met.
Even then, things can be very silly crazy. Yes, you can take Mephiston, or Draigo and 2 squads of 2 paladins, or Fateweaver and Nurglings, or Imperial Guard silliness, or Space Marines bringing Scouts and Dreadnoughts... Craziest wins.
Assualt on Black Reach is about 500 points each side, and the demo worked on a 4x3' table. We'd have to test this more extensively. Come up with lists and scenarios where 4x3' would fail.
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Well, Ben, we could do some practice games to see how it would work, im just thinking about genestealers and the like, with only 3 ft, there is no where on the board they cannot strike, but lets test it out with some 500 point games to see, i have no experience in this, so i might be talking out my arse when i say 4x3 is too small.
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let the record show that i am anti-4x3
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let the record show that i am anti-4x3
Any objection other than the Greater Good? :)
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4x3 favors too many races and limits some builds people can do. The max Range you can get on the table is 48.7 " and thats table corner to table corner.
Quick List here the 4x3 would hamper and would work decently on a 4x6"
HQ: Master of the Forge With Conversion Beamer 120
Troops: 5 Man Tac Squad + Rhino 125
Troop: 5 Man Tac Squad + Heavy Bolter Razorback 130
Elite/Heavy Support: Dreadnought Double Twinlinked Autocannon 125
Point Cost: 500
The Second Anyone is 6 inches away from the corner of a 4x3 board the Master loses his Best damage range never mind the scatter for it if something is in that corner. Tau going first would have open fire on anything on the board since you cant deploy really to avoid it they will shoot up most of your army.
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Yeah, and making the table so small again means that there is only 3 ft wide to maneuver left to right, and when you think about it, again that means that assault armies with lots of models with fleet will easily be able to assault, and again, there is the problem of out flanking, only 3 ft wide gives you VERY little room to hide.
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I feel like the 4x4 would put *some* lists at a disadvantage, but it would mainly just put an emphasis on mobility. Whether that be through outflanking (which would be way more effective), deep striking or plain moving fast I'm fairly certain that every army could find a way.
4x6 is too big, though.
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Tau going first would have open fire on anything on the board since you cant deploy really to avoid it they will shoot up most of your army.
This statement describes Tau, or any gunline, in almost every game.
there is the problem of out flanking, only 3 ft wide gives you VERY little room to hide.
Hiding? Warhammer, you're doing it wrong. ;) But I see your point. To protect against Infiltration/assault, one would have to deploy within the middle 12" of a 3' side.
4x4 is as big as I'd consider. 4x6 with 500 points, that's far too big of a board. I know one thing for sure. If there's a tournament, and the tables are declared a certain size, people will make lists around that.
Some armies like close-quarters, others like space. I think I'd have to see lists of advantages side-by-side.
One consequence of 500 points I'm seeing in these arguments is really the bigger issue of rock, paper, scissors. With 500 points, you pretty much have to bring one or the other or the other. It's seems hard to make an effective all-comers list.
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The max Range you can get on the table is 48.7 " and thats table corner to table corner.
Corner to corner on a 4x3' is 5' (60").
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4x3 is bad because it is never used and I'll assume it's for a good reason.
Breaking a convention "just because" and for "no real reason" will show more problems since the original convention didn't have any problems.
Also, there is a thing called "Kill zone" which sounds like what you are trying to do..
http://galaxyinflames.blogspot.com/2010/07/special-operations-killzone-skirmish.html (http://galaxyinflames.blogspot.com/2010/07/special-operations-killzone-skirmish.html)
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So, how about a chaos space marines list with
1 Chaos lord
1 Greater Daemon
2 x 5 squads of chaos space marines champ, icon
3 x 5 squads of less daemons
lol horde chaos space marines!
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4x3 is bad because it is never used and I'll assume it's for a good reason.
Oh, I won't assume anything. In terms of the logistics of running an event, dividing a table in half is quite reasonable. 4x4' will take up a bunch more space, but if is determined to be for the betterment of the game, then space be damned.
Breaking a convention "just because" and for "no real reason" will show more problems since the original convention didn't have any problems.
In this case, I'm not clear what the original convention is, or if its being broken. I fully endorse any decisions to be made with sound reasoning.
Also, there is a thing called "Kill zone" which sounds like what you are trying to do.
Nothing like it. I saw the word "restriction" and said immediately, "That's the opposite," and stopped reading. The basic premise I'm aiming for is a 500 point game of 40k, on a smaller table, with no rules added, deleted or changed.
I did like this part though.
We have brought back the dreaded Overwatch, in a limited way, so everyone please stay clam until you try it.
It's a rather shellfish request.
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So, how about a chaos space marines list with
1 Chaos lord
1 Greater Daemon
2 x 5 squads of chaos space marines champ, icon
3 x 5 squads of less daemons
lol horde chaos space marines!
I'm gonna tweak that idea. If I still ran CSM and had that concept...
1 Daemon Prince, Wings, Mark of Tzeentch
1 Greater Daemon
5 Chaos Space Marines w/ melta, Champ, Icon
5 Chaos Space Marines w/ melta, Champ, Icon
5 Summoned Lesser Daemons
5 Summoned Lesser Daemons
or
1 Chaos Lord, Terminator Armor, Mark of Nurgle, Personal Icon
1 Greater Daemon
5 Chaos Space Marines w/ melta, Champ, Icon
5 Chaos Space Marines w/ melta, Champ, Icon
5 Summoned Lesser Daemons
5 Summoned Lesser Daemons
I like my HQs to have some beef. :)
Those objective missions would be looking pretty good!
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The max Range you can get on the table is 48.7 " and thats table corner to table corner.
Corner to corner on a 4x3' is 5' (60").
PYTHAGORAS WOULD BE PROUD THAT YOU RECOGNIZED ONE OF HIS MANY TRIPLETS.
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Im drunk whats your Excuse
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Also for 500 points, a painting rule would be easy for everyone involved and add something nice.
I want some sort of wider painting/model competition in the BG community at some point. Any ideas about how to generate interest (especially in terms of prizes), I'd want to hear them.
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Offer a good prize.
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I could deal with a painting competition, i probably wont win, but my new tau models are actually coming out pretty well.
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Only thing I can add to this is that one of my regular game guard troop choices is about 500 points, fielding a 5 man command squad, 3 30 man infantry squads, 3 6 man heavy weapons, and 1 6 man special weapon squad. A guardsman that knows what he's doing and field alot with 500 points or a little bit but very tough with 500 points.
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I want some sort of wider painting/model competition in the BG community at some point.
Coming "soon."
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Omg soon like Half Life Episode 3 or soon like Duke Nukem Forever.
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You could always have the prize be a free 500 point army!
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Omg soon like Half Life Episode 3 or soon like Duke Nukem Forever.
Anything Chase does is better than DNF.
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You could always have the prize be a free 500 point army!
I fucking love this.
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yeah, grey knights, you get 5 models, lucky you
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Was wondering, with 500 points, what would be the army requirements? 1 HQ, 2 troop? Like I said, a guard player can easily field a 500 troop choice... a guard player can easily field a 1000 point troop choice.....
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Was wondering, with 500 points, what would be the army requirements? 1 HQ, 2 troop?
Yup. 1 HQ, 2 Troops. Minimum FOC requirements.
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You could always have the prize be a free 500 point army!
I've been mulling something like this over, and it's a sticking point.
A Daemon list...
Herald of Khorne
Herald of Khorne
Herald of Khorne
Herald of Khorne
Nurglings
Nurglings
Soul Grinder
Retail value, over $200.
Carte blanche would be difficult to keep reasonable. I can't even imagine the damage IG would rack up given carte blanche. I'd have to chat with Chase about an event's financial expectations.
There are a few solutions I have in mind, in no particular order.
1. Winner take all. Pro: A bigger prize likely to draw more players, winner gets to pick what they like. Con: Only one prize, increased likelihood of bitching and grumpiness.
2. Pre-picked 500 point armies. Pro: Finances are dictated, more prizes. Con: Maybe you don't want one of the choices. It would be a bit of work, but perhaps with an option like this, 500 point lists can be for every codex.
3. 500 point army with an established monetary limit. Pro: Best of both worlds. Con: Some choices and armies are more expensive than others.
4. Straight store credit, homie.
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FYI, I love store credit, you always get what you want and if you don't, it's your own fault so you can't gripe.
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Store Credit seems like the best idea. This entire thing seems like a good idea. The only thing I don't like is using Kill Points. It seems like just Victory Points is a better idea, since some armies would be really easy to either rack up or lose KPs. Like Necrons.
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... since some armies would be really easy to either rack up or lose KPs.
That's a criticism of KPs that holds regardless of points.
And no one is likely bringing Necrons.
Necron Lord, Res Orb
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
That's 500 points. If you want to change the list, it's because you don't like the Res Orb. Still, it's like 21 Marines that an opponent would have to remove... Oh wait, 16. :P
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I don't think it would be terrible to say necrons don't phase out at 500 points.
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I don't think it would be terrible to say necrons don't phase out at 500 points.
Probably by the time an event like this happens, Phase Out shouldn't be an issue.
Let's put it this way. Does it make a difference? To the Necron players, sure. To determining a winner? Not so much.
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I might already know the answer, but I clearly forget... Tilarium, who are you?
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On table size:
The game is geared to 4x6.
Weapon distance and vehicle movement is factored around that.
Having 4x4 or 4x3 is going to neuter some armies hard.
For Example:
IG/Tau vs: Blood Angels/Dark Eldar/to a lesser degree Sisters of Battle.
Turn 1: BA/DE/SoB start as far forward as possible. And then the IG/Tau are in assault or on fire.
Turn 2: Game over
Blood Angels' 18 inch moving Rhinos, the zooming Dark Eldar, really make a 4x4 or 4x3 unbalanced.
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I suppose the same could be said about the 500 point limit though, right? Surely the game is not balanced around 500 point games...
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Blood Angels' 18 inch moving Rhinos, the zooming Dark Eldar, really make a 4x4 or 4x3 unbalanced.
Counter-example. There are fewer places for the Tau's enemies to hide before they are shot dead, and their railguns will always have range.
I think the issue is 500 may neuter some lists and/or concepts, and it's very difficult to attempt an all-comers list. But I don't believe 500 neuters Tau harder than anyone else, especially seeing them rise as champs of the Minibattle. They're still bringing serious dakka. Imbalances exist across the game, regardless of points.
But then all that is why this needs to be tested extensively. It's arguing theory in a vacuum.
One more thing: Simon found out no one will really have to worry about Sisters anymore. With the downgrades, units are somehow becoming more expensive points-wise. Codex fail imminent.
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Wait, you mean simon wont be playing his sisters in the semi's of ard boyz? YES! I stand a chance!
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"There are fewer places for the Tau's enemies to hide before they are shot dead, and their railguns will always have range."
Yes. That actually supports the thesis. The railgun (if you bring a !50+point gun to a 500pt match) actually gets to fire before being blown up. Also it forces the tactical use of cover.
As for is the game balanced at 500 points, it should be "relatively balanced" (removing Codex creep etc) yes, as it's meant to scale point wise as evidenced by 'Ard Boyz to Kill Teams.
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I'm coming around to the realization after some conversations last night that 4x3' is too small for most people's preference.
So 4x4 I think it'd have to be.
I think Fritz40k is running a 500 point tournament on the second day of Battle for Salvation this year.
These are his thoughts, which mirror ours.
http://saimhann.blogspot.com/2011/07/40k-500-points-task-force-40k.html
Does anyone happen to know him, formally or otherwise?
Oh! Suddenly, an idea! Best 2 out of 3 contest. That way, luck should play less of a role in the course of events. Each match is 45 minutes, so a series would be about 2.5 hours. Thoughts?
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it should be 500pts apocalypse with 1 strategic asset
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it should be 500pts apocalypse with 1 strategic asset
MINIBATTLE RAGE! One of the things I disliked the most about the Megabattle was the huge amount of strategic assets and the expectation that I was supposed to know who had which assets and what exactly those assets did. Way too much information!
We played that 13-player 500-point game at the store last Thursday. It was an interesting exercise, and probably would have had more success with a better balance between the teams.
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I chatted with Chase last week (in a power-less store) and he said if we come up with an event, the store will likely support it. That's cool.
Now that we've had time away from the idea, does it still sound like a good one?
Based on feedback so far, I figure an event would look something like this:
The event would be capped at 32 players. **
The event would be a straight-forward Win/Loss format of 5 rounds. After Round 2, the field is divided into 4 brackets based on performance.
Bracket 1 - eight 2-0 players
Bracket 2 - eight 1-1 players (top half)
Bracket 3 - eight 1-1 players (bottom half)
Bracket 4 - eight 0-2 players
Each round will be 45 minutes, and there would be a 15 minute break between rounds if necessary. Half-hour break (or more) between Rounds 2 and 3 as brackets are determined and lunch is eaten.
Rules would be simple. Each 500 point army must at a minimum fulfill the basic FOC requirements (1 HQ and 2 Troops choices). Models must be WYSIWYG.
Table size: 4' x 4'
As for prizes, I know Chase and I can get something worked out. I figure the players who make it to the final round as Bracket Finalists could at least get their entry money back (as store credit), and the bracket winners get a bit something extra, and the overall winner of the day would be the sole undefeated player. No promises, but a 500 point army as a grand prize, in some way, shape or form may be possible (likely with a $$ cap, because I can only imagine how it could be exploited).
** I think there should be a deadline and should the number of entrants exceed 32, the participants would be randomly determined, with the other players extended invitations to be alternate players. This seems more fair than "first come, first serve", given the high demand of BG events and that some people's lives may not be lived entirely on the Internet.
Am I missing something crucial?
I know there still has to be a decision about painting, and really, it's only 500 points. Like, if you can't paint 500 points in a three-color scheme, that's silly. Depending on interest, it could be possible to have a painting/conversion award.
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yes i would love to see 100% painted
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With a painting requirement, I'd be in.
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I would like no painting requirement.
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Like, if you can't paint 500 points in a three-color scheme, that's silly. Depending on interest, it could be possible to have a painting/conversion award.
QFT. Really...
Also, I know it's probably a shot in the dark, but any chances of getting a tournament set up in the near future...? Like the weekend of Sept 17-18...? Which coincidentally happens to be the weekend I'll be coming back up to MA...? ::)
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The vote so far is 3-1 in favor of painted armies.
Entry fee is a sticking point. What are people comfortable with? $10? $15? The event would be about 6 hours long. The more people are willing to pay, the better the prize pool.
$5 for 500 has wonderful alliteration, but sadly $5x32 = 160 wouldn't generate enough prize money worth anyone's time.
Also, I know it's probably a shot in the dark, but any chances of getting a tournament set up in the near future...? Like the weekend of Sept 17-18...? Which coincidentally happens to be the weekend I'll be coming back up to MA...? ::)
September is full up (because Battleground is awesome). Depending on speed, mid-October at the soonest, likely a bit later.
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I vote yes to painted as well.
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I vote no towards a painting requirement. I feel like its not necessary. It would be better just to have a small prize for best painted, but not have it be a requirement, much like all of the other tournaments that BG runs.
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I never say yes to painting because there are color blind people out there like me who are afraid to paint their armies because they may turn out pink. =P so i say no painting requarment but a reward for best painted army
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My little brother, if it means anything, says no as well. None of his models are painted at the moment.
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whats wrong with pink
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That's the painting poll to an even 4-4, and I'll vote in favor of pink, so 2-0 there.
Please keep the feedback rolling in.
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Bonus prize for pink painted armies? LOL I say no to painted. If I join I'd probably want to use my rough riders again, but I'm not ready to paint them just yet.
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Entry fee is a sticking point. What are people comfortable with? $10? $15? The event would be about 6 hours long. The more people are willing to pay, the better the prize pool.
$5 for 500 has wonderful alliteration, but sadly $5x32 = 160 wouldn't generate enough prize money worth anyone's time.
I think $10 is fair. The higher the entry fee, the better the prize support, right? 1st place gets a Battalion set, 2nd place a small box, 3rd place a Blister pack, maybe something else for "Best Painted". Rest goes to the house. :)
Just to note, I'd be comfortable paying upwards of $15, if that's what gets decided.
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500 points, 500$ entry fee.
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500 points, 500$ entry fee.
I support this.
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LOVE IT.
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$500
(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20080130030645/uncyclopedia/images/e/e1/Guiness-Brilliant!.jpg)
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i say no to painted armies, a lot of people who would want to play a 500 point tourney might be new with their armies (me included) and while i have made some progress, with school going, and college searching, i really dont have the time to get my army painted =(. However, that doesn't mean people with painted armies should be penalized, there can and should be a healthy painting prize for the person with the best painted army.
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one way to find the most broken 500 point list.
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one way to find the most broken 500 point list.
Oh yeah, definitely. Hype that up for six months, and let the Internet burn!
I'm starting to think a High Rollers tournament would be a good idea. Staff wearing tuxedos, free beverages to the participants. Big stakes for big boys who want big prizes. Judges can walk around with the rulebooks and FAQs locked in a handcuff-attached suitcase. Cheap floozies, optional.
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if anything painting req are great cause it gets people with their new army to get it painted.
i would have no plans to win best painted but it would get me to paint my plaguebearers.
this event is not going to happen right away which gives enuff to paint 500 points.
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I'm against a painting requirement too.
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If we can find 40+ people to get 4000 points worth of stuff painted for the Megabattle each year, I don't think it'd be that difficult to find 40 or so people with 500 points of painted stuff either.
Just sayin'...
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If we can find 40+ people to get 4000 points worth of stuff painted for the Megabattle each year, I don't think it'd be that difficult to find 40 or so people with 500 points of painted stuff either.
Just sayin'...
While this is true, I feel as if the painting requirement on the megabattle is in place there to make it even more cinematic than it already is. While the 500 point game isn't really meant to be cinematic. It's meant to be "Lets see how stupidly awesome i can make my 500 point list".
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I know painting 500 points sounds easy, but unlike you who has a sizable portion of your army already painted, i have 500 points of tau completely unpainted, add to this fact that i have to get up at 4:40, get home at around 7, with 3 hours of homework, and have to do a tonne of college application stuff, I dont have much time to paint. Also, i use a certain primer that im waiting to arrive, and until i get that, i can't do anything. I know i am just one person, but i think there are a lot of other people who would be unable to participate simply because of painting.
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I see both sides of the painting argument. I am leaning in one direction, but I'm going to sleep on it.
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I actually go to the same school as canadianone. Its the first day and I already have an essay due tomorrow and with 3 APs and after school stuff, no painting will be done for a long time to come.
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Can people do me a favor and come up with the most expensive 500 point lists, by GW retail? Just round-about numbers, doesn't need to be fancy.
These numbers would help determine what sort of grand prize is possible.
I posted up earlier a Daemon list that exceeded $200.
Necrons top out at $85. Draigo/Paladin bomb, $72.50. :)
I expect IG and Orks to break this idea.
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15$ for a Painted Army 20$ for an Unpainted Army Entry Fee.
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Command Squad 25
2 Platoon Command Squads 25*2
6 Infantry Squads 25*6
2 Scout Sentinals w/ missle launchers 30*2
Totals: 500pts and $285
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well school is weekdays,
you have mention of the weekend.
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I'm just lazy and I don't want to do it.
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I like the differant price for painted and unpainted.. but what about partial painted? So I just built a 496 point Inquisitor army. Could be interesting to do, mostly cause I can built it up without having to buy anything. And best of all, not a single Grey Knight to be seen anywhere!
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Command Squad 25
2 Platoon Command Squads 25*2
6 Infantry Squads 25*6
2 Scout Sentinals w/ missle launchers 30*2
Totals: 500pts and $285
this is basically 2 battleforces, $230, rather than $285, add on the command squad for $25
Also, different prices for Painted and not Painted is the stupidest idea I have ever heard.
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Marching band, lots of homework, practice instraments, battlegrounds, relaxing, .................
stuff tends to add up. Battlegrounds is one of the few places I can relax and have fun playing 40k so I dont paint there. Also, add in fact that Im lazy when it comes to painting anyway.
Command Squad 25
2 Platoon Command Squads 25*2
6 Infantry Squads 25*6
2 Scout Sentinals w/ missle launchers 30*2
Totals: 500pts and $285
this is basically 2 battleforces, $230, rather than $285, add on the command squad for $25
Wow, I missed that one, thanks! ;D
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Also, I mean seriously. it's a 500 point game. Do we really want to make it More rigid than a normal tournament? If you take 500 points seriously then it's just broken and not fun. This is why i think there should be a lower entry fee than normal tournaments (sorry chase :P).
Wasn't that the point of this anyway? to suit the needs of the casual player?
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I think it's seriously fucking stupid to have a requirement on the 500pt tournament, for the main reason that it's a casual 500pt tournament. Seriously, if I wanted to show off my artistic prowess and be king of the Paint scene, I'd do it.
You really wanna know why though I don't paint? It's because it's makes my army already MORE expensive than it currently is, it makes it more of a time consumer than it already is, and TBQH, I have many more important things to be worried about than painting my models for a 500pt "casual" 40k tourney.
Also, I mean seriously. it's a 500 point game. Do we really want to make it More rigid than a normal tournament? If you take 500 points seriously then it's just broken and not fun. This is why i think there should be a lower entry fee than normal tournaments (sorry chase :P).
Wasn't that the point of this anyway? to suit the needs of the casual player?
I agree with Kevin on this one. If we don't have the large tournaments Painted Only(Which I mind considerably less than a 500pt painted only, to the point where it's totally understandable), then why make this paint only?
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while i would prefer we just make a painting award, i would be open to the idea of painted armies getting a reduced entry fee, the only problem with that is it would mean that the prize support would be smaller. Though i agree with bromeo, i was under the impression that this was to be more of a fun casual tournament, though i could be mistaken.
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The different prices for painted and unpainted were a joke it wasn't meant to be taken seriously. As for is this for casual people. It doesnt matter if its casual or pro you get a prize involved and someone is going to bring their A-Game to take it home no matter what smashing on casual players. I don't agree with having a requirement on stuff painted I would encourage it like Chase does every time with the tournament saying Hopefully Painted Army. I think 500 Points would be Ideal in the aspect of a Painting Tournament anyways small enough for people to participate while devoting the time and effort to make it look good.
As for tournament this thread was originally just centered on the idea of how would one work a 500 point tournament. Chase had said in another thread were not having a 40k tourney soon and most likely the next one was looking to be doubles in something like oct/nov.
As for Entry fees that is something Battlegrounds decides on especially considering they pretty much close down the bulk of the store for a tournament bring on people to work that day as well as Buy Illegal Soda for Plainville and give really nice prizes away not just you know The Tactical winners, But Best Painted, Best Sportsmanship, Best Theme, and the Smoking Boots Awards.
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I think the point is that Ben said that if we did the planning, GB would be on board for this tournament, and maybe guys, some of us could offer to get there earlier to help set stuff up, im sure that would make chase more open to the idea of us having this tourney.
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I wouldn't trust myself setting up the terrain
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I think it's seriously fucking stupid to have a requirement on the 500pt tournament, for the main reason that it's a casual 500pt tournament. Seriously, if I wanted to show off my artistic prowess and be king of the Paint scene, I'd do it.
You really wanna know why though I don't paint? It's because it's makes my army already MORE expensive than it currently is, it makes it more of a time consumer than it already is, and TBQH, I have many more important things to be worried about than painting my models for a 500pt "casual" 40k tourney.
Also, I mean seriously. it's a 500 point game. Do we really want to make it More rigid than a normal tournament? If you take 500 points seriously then it's just broken and not fun. This is why i think there should be a lower entry fee than normal tournaments (sorry chase :P).
Wasn't that the point of this anyway? to suit the needs of the casual player?
I agree with Kevin on this one. If we don't have the large tournaments Painted Only(Which I mind considerably less than a 500pt painted only, to the point where it's totally understandable), then why make this paint only?
I 100% agree with Bromeo (and I like his attitude lol). As much as I'd love to field a beautifully painted army, 40k is just not on the top of my list of "real world things to do". I have little free time as it is and it took me all summer just to clue my 2000pt army, and will probably take all winter just to paint it.. only difference is that now I can finally play with it!!!
For the record love the idea of a 500pt tourney, it seems way more tactical then a massive 2000pt force.
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I love the Idea of a 500 Point Tournament also I mean so much you can do with 500 Points that you can't do with higher point games.
Also Space Marines 185$ before conversion on the list I have in mind.
Also Chase has been offered help before but usually he takes it all upon himself to do it anyways because he wants to make sure everything is just right.
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I think it's seriously fucking stupid to have a requirement on the 500pt tournament, for the main reason that it's a casual 500pt tournament.
I see you take your casual fun seriously. :-\
A basic three-color scheme minimum for well under $15.
Flat black or white primer @ Home Depot = $1
Two pots of GW paint @ BG = less than $8
small brush @ Michaels = less than $4
Rob Walker of Evil Dice wrote a short article about the merits of painting and modeling. I think it's a good start, and I particularly agree with his third point.
http://www.evildice40k.com/?p=243
Battleground runs the few tournaments of which I know painting is not a requirement. For many other tournaments, a three-color scheme is required.
Three colors does not mandate Picasso or Michelangelo level talent. If Stelek's painted-crappy Space Wolves army qualifies, anyone's can.
This event likely won't happen for at least six weeks from now, and likely longer than that. So let's just take a deep breath, relax...
(http://www.tropicaldestinations.info/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/anse-source-d-argent-beach.jpg)
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sorry to keep belaboring the point, (i know i know) but some people might not want to rush their painting. I am going to try to have my army painted, but i make no promises.
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"For the community, by the community." I love it.
We are going to run this event.
It is going to be awesome.
It is going to be fun.
I like what's going on in this thread. A lot.
Quick thoughts, (Ben, I'll respond to your email later, in more detail)...
$15.00 allows us to do quite a bit more than $10.00 and makes "rounding things out" much easier.
I care very little (read: not at all) about the store "making money" off of this sort of event.
I am sort of in love this the different brackets and "win/loss" style of play here. How will we determine a winner?
I would like to bill this as a "casual, for fun" event, if it isn't already, due to it's nature.
Finally:
I would like to see painting required. - I would like this to be a "hobbyist" event first, and a competitive event second. Most everything about the event reflects that theme, and a painting requirement would be in line with that. To me, it makes sense. It is of critical importance that we run / host different events for different types of gamers.
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Alright, well, at least tell me that the best painted/best theme will get rewarded.
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Here is my final post on this topic, I feel as if my definition of casual may be different from everyone else's
-Competitive
Serious mode gamers. Absolutely nothing wrong with these types of gamers, they just know what is best and they are able to field it. However, this event was not made for them.
-Casuals
Don't like to devote much time to the study/playing of 40k, but when they do, it's always a blast.
-Hobbyists
Love the modeling and painting of models.
Here is what i think will happen
Most casuals, like i stated, won't want to spend a lot of time on their 40k. This includes painting a 500 point army, which, in theory is an easy task. However, I'd estimate that a 500 point army for me would take at least 1 or 2 good weekends of work. So less casuals will go to this event.
The hobbyists will LOVE this event. Painting required? Small army size so i can spend lots of time detailing? yes please!
The competitives will go there because they know they can exploit the fact that it is 500 points on a reduced board and steal the prize away from the casuals and the hobbyists.
So while the painting standard is definately a good thing, i feel as if the GIANT prize will ruin the entire "feel" of the event. What I propose is that the giant prize comes from the painting instead of the playing, and whoever wins the actual tournament will get a smaller, but still decent, prize.
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Ben has come up with an interesting proposal re: prizes. We are currently discussing them.
There will be an award for the best painted army any-which-way this turns out.
That prize will most certainly not exceed the top prize.
The way this event is shaping up I think that players of all types (as defined by Kevin) can appreciate, enjoy, and win something worthwhile.
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I am sort of in love this the different brackets and "win/loss" style of play here. How will we determine a winner?
The whole bracket idea is shamelessly ripped off straight from NOVA.
The event would be 5 rounds. Each round would be a straight-forward Win/Loss.
After Round 2, the field is divided into 4 brackets, based on performance.
Bracket 1 - eight 2-0 players
Bracket 2 - eight 1-1 players (top half)
Bracket 3 - eight 1-1 players (bottom half)
Bracket 4 - eight 0-2 players
The idea is that after two rounds, similarly skilled players are likely to be competing within their own brackets for prizes. So the first two rounds determine which prize a player is eligible for, and the final three matches determine which player actually wins the prize. The final 3 rounds, the Bracket Rounds, would be determined by matching up players only from within their bracket.
Bracket 1 winner would finish with a record of 5-0, the day's sole undefeated player and Grand Master Victor Winner Champion.
Bracket 2 winner would finish with a record of 4-1.
Bracket 3 winner would finish with a record of 4-1.
Bracket 4 winner would finish with a record of 3-2.
(Notice each bracket winner would go 3-0 to win within their bracket.)
If a seemingly clever player tanks the first two rounds on purpose, joke's on them for trying to take a whopping 10% or less of the purse. I know if we do a $15 entry fee, the prize numbers I was looking at almost guarantee skilled players will not be tanking any matches.
Now, as for the specific mission scenarios, that's something else entirely. I'll rope Sam into helping me come up with some proposals.
Just got hit with a bolt of inspiration. Promotional poster incoming.
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Promotional poster incoming.
Nihilist Club style?
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Nihilist Club style?
Oh dear. Less offensive, more awesome. :)
A conceptual draft. If you squint, you can see the "5". People with real photoshop skills should help.
(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/3809/500v.jpg)
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Derek will be tasked with that when he's back from vacation.
Until then, I'll accept fill-ins. In fact, if we have any photoshop ninjas out there let me know and show me you've got game.
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(http://i54.tinypic.com/2hn9a4p.jpg)
5 cats = 500 points
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I'm pretty sure Paul said this already, but Ed, you're my hero... :D
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Ed, I like what you've done here.
Can you incorporate the idea I had when I woke up and give him the Battleground shield? Maybe the cats, too.
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(http://i51.tinypic.com/2vx3ql4.jpg)
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Chase and I chatted today, made great strides! Got a tentative date and the prize structure laid out.
Our mission now, should we choose to accept it, is to create mission objectives and game types. I'm hoping to avoid Ard Boyz silliness. Keep 'em short, keep 'em simple. Tie-breaker is always Victory Points, and if that's a draw, then the result is a draw (1/2 win).
Here's what Sam and I came up with (though Sam was distracted by Superman Returns). One thing I'm noticing is how over 5 rounds, the most balanced lists are likely going to achieve victory.
3 Objectives. There are two variants of this, and I can see both being used. The first variant has an objective in the center of the table, with an objective marker in the center of each table half.
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/702/table1y.png)
The second variant has objectives stretched and spread evenly across the table mid-line.
(http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/7831/table2h.png)
One controversial mission objective is Kill Models. Similar to Kill Points, except players tally the number of models killed. This one is truly up in the air, definitely need feedback.
We considered a Kill HQ! mission, but it seemed likely that players would just hide the HQs all game. But it was pointed out, if someone takes a big HQ choice (200+ points), that's a huge part of the army not playing.
We decided a Kill Troops! mission would be better overall.
Here's one we got excited about, but it's rough. This is the one that stretches what we're comfortable with, which isn't a bad thing...
Mission - Table Quarters
Deployment -
Players roll off to determine who goes first. The player who goes first chooses a long table edge to be his own. Players designate one quarter along their table edge in which the opponent cannot deploy. This is the Home Quarter. Players then alternate deploying units, rolling randomly to determine in which table quarter that unit can deploy. Units cannot deploy within 12" of an enemy unit. Should a unit be unable to deploy in the randomly determined table quarter, the unit instead deploys in Home Quarter.
Example:
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/2559/tabled3.png)
That's only like 4 decent ideas, and we'll need 5 solid ones.
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Woke up with this list in mind.
Mini-Chopstar
Herald of Khorne (Blessing of the Blood God)
Herald of Khorne (Blessing of the Blood God)
Bloodcrushers x4 (Fury of Khorne, Chaos Icon, Instrument of Chaos)
Nurglings x3
Nurglings x3
Not a great list, just amusing. And for a variant...
Skulltaker (Juggernaut)
Bloodcrushers x4 (Fury of Khorne, Chaos Icon, Instrument of Chaos)
Nurglings x3
Nurglings x3
Nurglings x3
Something else...
Herald of Nurgle (Unholy Might)
Nurglings x3
Nurglings x3
Fiends of Slaanesh x6
Fiends of Slaanesh x6
12 Fiends at 500 points. Ew.
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3-Objectives: Good. Doesn't really matter which option you go with. Depends on whether you like shooty or choppy armies more I guess. Personally, I'd go with Spearhead deployment and put the two non-center objectives in the non-deployment quarters, but that's just me.
Kill Troops: Hard to say, as I don't know how this is supposed to work. Do you get one point for each troop squad killed? Do you get one point for each troop squad you have left at the end of the game? Either way, you're heavily penalizing someone (either the people who took two troops, or the people who took many). How about something like a vp game where troops count for double vp? This could also work with the HQ thing; a VP game where the HQ counts as double. You could also do the reverse; a VP game where the troops or HQ count for half.
Kill models is bad. Very bad. Auto-lose for too many otherwise fine and balanced armies. Don't play orks. Or non-mech guard. Or Tyranids. It has all the problems of kill points, but worse. And none of the 'at least it punishes msu, which is otherwise awesome' benefit.
Generally, I think you should keep the five missions some combination of objectives and victory points. Here is a list of slight variations that are interesting enough to keep things varied, but not so interesting that they wreck what little balance you'll have at 500 points.
Two objectives.
Three objectives, as discussed.
Table Quarters.
Terrain
All of the above can be modified to that you control those things with troops, or with a preponderance of vp, or by having more scoring units, or whatever.
VP
VP where certain squad types are worth more/less.
VP where certain squad types score more/less when they kill something.
Combination of VP and non-VP (i.e. you get one point for every objective you control and one point for every full 100 vp you score. Most points wins).
As for deployment, Spearhead and Pitched Battle are good. Dawn of War on a small table makes it too easy for first turn assaults. You new deployment idea is ok, but it favors assault armies pretty heavily and can really screw Daemons.
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Kill Models I been running the numbers on lists and im not sure what is good or not but. Im Averaging a list holding 11-25 models in it at 500 points. But like Tyranids can get up to the 61 models in 500 points before stuff like tervigon.
1st and 2nd one look good. Table Quarters one kinda again throws it to the wind because it being random a bad roll of the dice may stick your army in the middle of nowhere. Deep Striking type armies like Drop Pod assaults and Daemons may have a distinct advantage on it also being able to focus out guys left by their lonesome. And Yes its possible to build a Drop Pod army at 500 points which would do pretty well.
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3-Objectives: Good. Doesn't really matter which option you go with. Depends on whether you like shooty or choppy armies more I guess. Personally, I'd go with Spearhead deployment and put the two non-center objectives in the non-deployment quarters, but that's just me.
I like that idea, another good variation. This also could work to good effect with just two objectives.
How about something like a vp game where troops count for double vp?
I like this.
Kill models is bad. Very bad. Auto-lose for too many otherwise fine and balanced armies. Don't play orks. Or non-mech guard. Or Tyranids. It has all the problems of kill points, but worse. And none of the 'at least it punishes msu, which is otherwise awesome' benefit.
Mmm, yeah, I had a feeling I was getting clever in over my skis. Would Kill Points actually work? I worry about some armies scoring 1 KP and just running away for the rest of the game.
Combination of VP and non-VP (i.e. you get one point for every objective you control and one point for every full 100 vp you score. Most points wins).
That's interesting!
You new deployment idea is ok, but it favors assault armies pretty heavily and can really screw Daemons.
I think on a bigger table, it might work better. Might. Agree with the other deployment assertions. I also think the diagonal deployment is also now feasible and reasonable.
(http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/5296/table4.png)
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And Yes its possible to build a Drop Pod army at 500 points which would do pretty well.
I wanna see a list. I can only fit two, and I have no room for an HQ. :|
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Space Wolves :O
Rune Priest
Grey Hunters w/ melta and Power Weapon and Drop Pod
Grey Hunters w/ melta and Power Weapon and Drop Pod
Grey Hunters w/ Flamer and Fist and Drop Pod
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Ben just don't forget that nurglings are not scoring.
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Diagonal deployment is fine as well. I was just to lazy to explain it in case people weren't familiar with it. You might want to think about shortening the 12 inch zone because the tables are smaller.
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Space Wolves :O
Rune Priest
Grey Hunters w/ melta and Power Weapon and Drop Pod
Grey Hunters w/ melta and Power Weapon and Drop Pod
Grey Hunters w/ Flamer and Fist and Drop Pod
Oh, well, say no more. I thought you were trying to build a list with Space Marines.
Ben just don't forget that nurglings are not scoring.
How aren't they? I acknowledge due to GW's lack of organizational and cross-referencing skills, there may be a rule buried out of place of which I'm not aware.
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Swarms cannot claim objectives in 5th edition.
Edit: look under scoring units, not swarms.
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Swarms cannot claim objectives in 5th edition.
Swarm special rule, nope. Nurglings, nope.
... Oh, there's the rule, on Page 90 with no mention anywhere else. Hmm. GW'ed again.
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Diagonal deployment is fine as well. I was just to lazy to explain it in case people weren't familiar with it. You might want to think about shortening the 12 inch zone because the tables are smaller.
Pythagoras says 12" provides an a No Man's Land just under 17" across.
He goes on to say 9" would provide an No Man's Land just over 12" across.
Either one seems fine to me.
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I might actually be able to throw together all my guard models and come up with 500 points... sounds interesting
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This is another way to consider the diagonal deployment.
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/4923/diagonaldeployment.png)
That makes the No Man's Land a bit longer to cross, which is closer to the distance for Pitched Battle deployment. So, unless I see hard numbers otherwise, I'm sold.
... at least I think that math is right. Geometry was never my strong suit.
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I declare Blood Angels fast vehicles the winner!
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The first draft of the 5 missions, ready for lots of feedback. There will be illustrations accompanying the final draft. (Revisions: 3:45 PM)
All draws are settled by Victory Points scored from enemy units. If this results in a draw, then the match is a draw. If all of your forces are destroyed, you automatically lose the scenario, regardless of whether you would win by other criteria.
Round 1 - Kill Troops!
Deployment: Pitched Battle
Objective: In this scenario, all scoring units killed count for double victory points earned. Winner is decided by Victory Points.
Round 2 – Into No Man's Land
Deployment: Diagonal (lines drawn from points 14” from corner)
Objective: 3 Objectives markers.
One objective marker must be placed in the center of the table. After table edges have been decided, but before deployment, each player places an objective marker on the table, with the player going first also placing his marker first. These objective markers must be more than 6" from any table edge and more than 12" away from any other objective. Winner holds the most objectives at game end.
Round 3 - Base Objectification
Deployment: Pitched Battle
Mission: 3 objective markers evenly spaced on a north-south center line. Holding an objective is worth 25 VP, scored at the end of each and every Game Turn. These victory points are scored in addition to those earned by killing the enemy. Most victory points earned wins this scenario.
Round 4 - Reese's Conundrum
Deployment: Pitched Battle
Mission: Units that end the game in the enemy's half of the board count as double for the purposes of Victory Points. Player with the most Victory Points remaining wins this scenario.
Round 5 – Spread Out
Deployment: Spearhead (10" middle circle instead of standard 12")
Mission: Table Quarters, most VP in a quarter wins the quarter. Roll off for units unable to determine which quarter they are in.
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Please post your thoughts on the scenarios.
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I SELL SUSPENDERS, AND I THINK THEYRE GREAT!
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Mission 3, it states that you score VPs by holding objectives, is this in addition to the normal ways to score VPs or replacing them?
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Mission 2 could use a fall-back in the case of a tie on Objectives. I am also a fan of having objectives fixed in place rather than placed by players, but that's a personal preference.
For Mission 3 you may want to consider only starting to count objectives after turn 2 - otherwise you are giving a huge advantage to armies that can get to the objectives on turn 1 and penalizing armies who want to Reserve or are on foot.
Other than that I think everything is good.
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Mission 2 could use a fall-back in the case of a tie on Objectives. I am also a fan of having objectives fixed in place rather than placed by players, but that's a personal preference.
I think the general rule of thumb in this case would be to go by Kill Points, in the event of a tie. It's the usual tie-breaker in most cases, but in a 500 point game, it may be less of a factor than games played at a higher point count. Maybe Victory Points could be used instead?
For Mission 3 you may want to consider only starting to count objectives after turn 2 - otherwise you are giving a huge advantage to armies that can get to the objectives on turn 1 and penalizing armies who want to Reserve or are on foot.
+1 to this idea. I think if the scoring for this scenario is done similarly to how the Megabattle was scored, it would make it a more balanced scenario.
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I revised and clarified the third mission with regard to objective-based victory points.
I already wrote that in case of a draw in any match, the decision will be made by most Victory Points scored. I should emphasize this point more if two people already missed it. I also added a "tabled = auto-lose" provision.
I'm undecided on the Mission 3 suggestion to start scoring on Turn 2, so I definitely want more people to chime in, more discussion.
Here's the illustration of the objectives in Mission 3.
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/702/table1y.png)
So the objective on your side is on the deployment line. If you deploy within 3" of the objective, within your zone, most armies can start earning Turn 1 Victory Points reliably. Aside from Daemons, I don't know of an entire army for which coming in from Reserves is mandatory. (And until Daemons learn how to play 40k like everyone else, I'm not making exceptions for them. :P )
The scenario is meant to force the choice between killing the enemy or holding objectives, with a point system based on risk and reward. In that regard, I am thinking of tweaking this such that the middle objective is worth 50 points instead of 25...
By the way, not a fan of the Megabattle scoring system. It makes sense, given the complete chaos of the event. But when scoring starts on Turn 2 and the game ends on Turn 3...
As for objectives in Mission 2, placing objectives is a lost art. Mission 3 is fixed, and that's when the matches will start to count for prizes. I like fixed objectives too, but I respect the hell out of players who know how to place them.
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I just had an idea, what if we did this small side story to the tournament, with the various HQ's? it could be like each HQ needs a name, and depending which HQ does the best, they win, or something? just to add a little character to the armies, and some story to the game. This could also be colossally dumb.
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I just had an idea, what if we did this small side story to the tournament, with the various HQ's? it could be like each HQ needs a name, and depending which HQ does the best, they win, or something? just to add a little character to the armies, and some story to the game. This could also be colossally dumb.
Usually called Best Theme like reason why your there fighting. You tend to see it in the Doubles for Battlegrounds where people create groupings that would make sense and ones that would not.
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It's hard to say by which measure an HQ did "best". But I could be amenable to creating a Best Theme army category, or something like it. I imagine there will be some surprise armies and lists coming in, maybe a Most Surprising List... Like, if someone actually brought 20 warriors and a Necron Lord with Res Orb. Most unique list? I think there are players who will take 500 points in some surprising directions. One list I've heard of would already be nominated, if it in fact hits the table.
I'd have to retool the prize structure, but I think I know where I can make room.
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Whats that you Want something that is completely useless after Turn 1 but would make people piss their pants for the first turn. Done.
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For rules, why not use an expanded kill team that Sam was running for a while?
Because it had too many rules and way too many restrictions for far too few figures. As it is 500 points, gives Necrons only 30 points to play with.
I think you mean 0 points. ( If you don't take a resorb you are an idiot )
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I like them all. As for when to start earning points off of objectives, whatever. If someone wants to take scouts, more power to them.
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As for when to start earning points off of objectives, whatever. If someone wants to take scouts, more power to them.
That's a good point. Having the count start on Turn 2 makes Scout and Infiltrate less effective for that mission, where starting it on Turn 1 makes all-Reserve armies less effective. At least all that in a vacuum.
Given that, I should probably just leave all objectives at 25 points per game turn.
There's a good reason to give players contesting objectives 10 points per game turn. It won't affect the result of the individual match, but I feel a player contesting objectives should be given something over another player in another match not contesting.
I'd like to get all the missions hammered out by next week, so that I can start putting together a packet. If this is happening November 5th as tentatively planned, I'd rather us be ready now.
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I'd rather us be ready now.
Yup.
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Emory asked an excellent question about the first mission, in which scoring units count for double VPs. Did a dedicated transport count as double? My instinct was no, and upon further reflection I feel this is a correct decision. The reason is that the transport itself cannot score an objective. Any thoughts on that point, whether the reasoning seems right or not?
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Emory asked an excellent question about the first mission, in which scoring units count for double VPs. Did a dedicated transport count as double? My instinct was no, and upon further reflection I feel this is a correct decision. The reason is that the transport itself cannot score an objective. Any thoughts on that point, whether the reasoning seems right or not?
I generally think the first mission is poor. Why penalize someone for taking a bunch of troops? He MUST take at least 2. Why not make everything but troops give double?
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I generally think the first mission is poor. Why penalize someone for taking a bunch of troops? He MUST take at least 2. Why not make everything but troops give double?
Every single player must take at least 2 Troops to fill the Force Org chart. So it's not someone, it's everyone. No one player is getting singled out.
If you can provide a concrete example of how armies would be *unfairly* penalized, that's what I need to see. Some codices will have cheap enough units to allow more than 2 scoring units; an asset in objectives, but a liability here.
But why not make the other units double? A couple reasons.
The first is that there are some cheap HQ units for whom doubling VP value makes little difference in the game over all. Each scoring unit for most armies is on average expensive enough to affect a difference across all lists, regardless of codex. And the principle is the same, whether it be objectives or Kill Troops! Don't let the enemy kill your scoring units while trying to kill his.
The second reason is the real possibility of the Most Boring Game ever. It's too easy to hide an HQ for the entire game, and that's the only other guaranteed unit choice.
This conversation made me realize that by wording, Swarms are not scoring units and so will not count as double! But there's the problem of not being able to hold objectives in other missions...
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I am interested in participating with a new army for this event.
Please post the finalized rules and scenarios in a new thread as I have trouble sifting through the 10 pages.
Also if it is painting required event I will not participate for various reasons.
Thanks in advance.
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I am interested in participating with a new army for this event.
Please post the finalized rules and scenarios in a new thread as I have trouble sifting through the 10 pages.
Also if it is painting required event I will not participate for various reasons.
Thanks in advance.
When the information is parsed out and announcements are officially made, that information will be posted in a separate thread (which will also be stickied to the top of the message board).
As of this moment, painting will be required for the planned event. I'll just assume one of your various reasons for not participating in a painting-mandatory event is that your army would not be painted. A bit late to that conversation, but what might the other reasons be?
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Sorry if I am "late to the party". I got used to Chase's standard tournament announcements.
Glad the event will be happening and hope it's a great event.
The core reasons I have issue with a required paint event are not relevant but I can be asked any time personally. In the end my new army can not and will not be painted in time. I could play my DE but I am still hoping to sell them and even they are not well painted. Hope the event goes great and hopefully see you all at the next 1v1 or 2v2 etc tourney.
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Sorry if I am "late to the party". I got used to Chase's standard tournament announcements.
Maybe late is the wrong word? I posed the question here to the community and after extensive feedback, Chase and I have since had a lengthy conversation regarding painting and worked out the prize structure to support it.
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Tossing around Ideas for Unconventional Lists for Space Marines.
Bombed then Gone:
2 Chapter Masters =250
2 5 Man Scout Squads Sniper Rifles= 150
1 Thunderfire Cannon= 100
Blow Up Everything With Orbital Bombardment and keep shelling down with Sniper Fire and Thunderfire Shells.
Bike List:
1 Space Marine Captain on a Bike with Relic Blade-165
5 Man Bike Squad Flamer and Powerfist -170
5 Man Bike Squad Melta and Power Weapon - 165
Its a Bike List :O
Sneaky Librarian:
1 Librarian Termi Armor Storm Shield Vortex of Doom, The Quickening
2 5 Man Tac Squads with Meltabombs
1 Devastator Squad 3 Missile Lauchers 1 Lascannon
Deep Strike Librarian in let him wreak some havoc from behind.
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bike list looks like the most fun, if you are going for fun.
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do the bomb list! it would be... the bomb! (SEE WHAT I DID THERE!?!?!?)
no but that looks seriously funny, that many blasts in that small an army, id love to see your opponents face!
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I got used to Chase's standard tournament announcements.
I'll have one for you guys sometime soon'ish (two weeks or less).
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bike list looks like the most fun, if you are going for fun.
Agreed. That's a bunch of T5 and speed to handle!
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Ya just fun lists I am Putting Together with Silly ways to play them.
The first list Emory saw the Prototype for on Thursday poor life Decision to group up early on can lead to a decimation. Then you just sit back and fire away :P.
Bikes ya T5 with a lot of speed Get up close if I need them stay far away if I don't.
The Librarian list is like Deep Strike a Sole Librarian behind enemy lines see how much Havoc he can cause.
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I generally think the first mission is poor. Why penalize someone for taking a bunch of troops? He MUST take at least 2. Why not make everything but troops give double?
Every single player must take at least 2 Troops to fill the Force Org chart. So it's not someone, it's everyone. No one player is getting singled out.
If you can provide a concrete example of how armies would be *unfairly* penalized, that's what I need to see. Some codices will have cheap enough units to allow more than 2 scoring units; an asset in objectives, but a liability here.
But why not make the other units double? A couple reasons.
The first is that there are some cheap HQ units for whom doubling VP value makes little difference in the game over all. Each scoring unit for most armies is on average expensive enough to affect a difference across all lists, regardless of codex. And the principle is the same, whether it be objectives or Kill Troops! Don't let the enemy kill your scoring units while trying to kill his.
The second reason is the real possibility of the Most Boring Game ever. It's too easy to hide an HQ for the entire game, and that's the only other guaranteed unit choice.
This conversation made me realize that by wording, Swarms are not scoring units and so will not count as double! But there's the problem of not being able to hold objectives in other missions...
Armies with expensive troops would be at a disadvantage in that game. Armies with cheap troops can take more other things and better protect their troops.
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And mechanized armies are at a disadvantage for kill points, etc. Its the nature of the game.
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Armies can choose to take mech or not. Armies with overly expensive troops cannot choose to pay less.
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Armies can choose to take mech or not. Armies with overly expensive troops cannot choose to pay less.
I like to think the game is balanced enough in concept where the more expensive Troops are more resilient than the less expensive Troops.
Which game-breaking Troops are you talking about here, Keith? Necrons, of course, no brainer. That one's been acknowledged out of the gate here and since the beginning of 5th Edition. Sisters now require 10-lady squads at a minimum, but that wasn't so when this idea started.
I find it a difficult argument any of the MEQ armies are overly expensive, as the game is based on them. Maybe there is a problem more wide-spread than I imagine, but at the moment, I honestly can't imagine it. I need to see specific examples.
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Okay, so bad news for everyone else, i am officially using this thread to keep track of painting my 500 point army. just weekly updates for motivational purposes.
done:
5 fire warriors
1 gun drone
to do:
devil fish
2x crisis suits
command suit
fire warrior
gun drone
shield drone
broadside (assuming i get it and dont just borrow one from someone)
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Alright guys, Chase told me to post the link for Combat Patrol in here so he could read it. I think that everyone else should probably look at it too to see what it is exactly (read:500pt tournament). IMHO, Combat Patrol is the answer to all the problems.
ALL OF THEM.
http://www.adepticon.org/11rules/2011cp.pdf
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Alright guys, Chase told me to post the link for Combat Patrol in here so he could read it. I think that everyone else should probably look at it too to see what it is exactly (read:500pt tournament). IMHO, Combat Patrol is the answer to all the problems.
ALL OF THEM.
I'm looking forward to seeing that link. And to having all of the problems solved. I didn't realize there were so many.
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Okay, so bad news for everyone else, i am officially using this thread to keep track of painting my 500 point army. just weekly updates for motivational purposes.
Words of encouragement here.
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http://www.adepticon.org/11rules/2011cp.pdf
:D
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http://www.adepticon.org/11rules/2011cp.pdf
:D
Fuck you Kevin. >:(
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Which game-breaking Troops are you talking about here, Keith? Necrons, of course, no brainer. That one's been acknowledged out of the gate here and since the beginning of 5th Edition. Sisters now require 10-lady squads at a minimum, but that wasn't so when this idea started.
Can I use this space to officially petition to ignore the WD "Codex" all together and just use the Witch Hunters Codex for Tournaments? The WD is literally just a kick in the balls to sisters players in terms of competitive viability, and I think you'll make a lot of people happy by ignoring it completely.
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goddamnit people, this is not combat patrol. When ben and i were talking about this, we weren't talking about combat patrol. we wanted to literally play a tournament with small games of 40k. we didn't want weird rules with caveats and exceptions. 1 HQ and 2 troops. that is pretty simple for everyone to pull off, except for maybe necrons, but you know, they can still field a list. If you really dont like 500 point games, go make a freaking combat patrol tourney and let us have our 500 point one. let me reiterate, we knew about combat patrol when we started thinking about this, and there is a reason we didn't just go that route, that was not the goal.
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oh, and on that note, i think ill complain that combat patrol doesn't allow me to field a competitive tyranid list, so we cant do it. see how stupid i just sounded there? if you think there are problems with this tournament, and the only way to solve them is by doing combat patrol, well, then this is not the tournament for you, dont attend.
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oh, and on that note, i think ill complain that combat patrol doesn't allow me to field a competitive tyranid list, so we cant do it. see how stupid i just sounded there? if you think there are problems with this tournament, and the only way to solve them is by doing combat patrol, well, then this is not the tournament for you, dont attend.
Whoa, hey there man, just chill. I didn't remember that we already talked about Combat Patrol OK? I just thought that the tournament could still use some work dude.
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Deep breath. Relax. You're all on an island.
(http://www.tropicaldestinations.info/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/anse-source-d-argent-beach.jpg)
I'll read the combat patrol stuff tonight and post my thoughts later. It may inspire me toward new missions, which we still can use. I have a draft of the announcement out for review/editing. Hopefully I will have a draft of the mission write-ups and illustrations in the next couple days.
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In hind sight, my comments were incredibly harsh and far more forceful than necessary, but it was kind ofgetting old, ben posted this idea, and we made it pretty clear what we were doing, and after 11 pages of heeing and hawing, people are still saying, "but you should do it like this" in ways that are not mini 40k games. However, that said, it still does not excuse me acting like a 9 year old, so please consider this a formal apology for my childish behavior, and lets try to all make this a really fun event!
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Anyone seen my diplomacy hat? It looks like Sam's fedora.
I just read the Adepticon Combat Patrols missions/scenarios from the past few years. The scenarios themselves are similar to what has been proposed here, or in some cases worse. (Kill Points, really?) Unfortunately, nothing inspirational there. One thing we're agreed on is the use of a 4'x4' table, so that's something...
For the actual Combat Patrol rules, the more I read these, the worse I felt. Why can't I take units with 2+ armor? Why can't I take Monstrous Creatures? Why can't I take named characters? Why can't I take a Land Raider?
My interest in organizing any "comp" (composition) event like this right now is less than zero. If people are interested in this sort of event, it should be known. (Clearly, some people are interested.) We can make it the next community-grown event... or just blatantly run Adepticon Combat Patrol, whatev. And it even could be "painting not required".
What makes the 500 point event unique and what I'm most excited about is the day being an exercise in extreme logic. Warhammer *should* be balanced at 500 points just as much as it is at 2500 points. In a strange way, it is. For any crazy thing you can do with a list, anyone can do. And who's to say craziest is best? It may yet bear out that a well-rounded force with a good general can win out the day. I'm also looking forward to handing out a stupid amount of prizes.
The 500 Point will not need a section of "Beware Oddities!" because of funky rules or scenarios. Anything that can happen in the 500 could happen in any other game.
I agree with Adepticon's General Rules, for what that's worth.
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Hmm, okie dokies then. I'll join if I ever get my models painted BTW Ben. Just a heads up.
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I will be there with 500 points of Thousand Sons. Like, 5 models or whatever.
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I will be there with 500 points of Thousand Sons. Like, 5 models or whatever.
Yeah, they do start to look like a Necron list, except Thousand Sons have Psykers, AP 3 boltguns, Relentless and 3+/4+. They at least get something for their outrageous points... But yeah, I could only squeeze 11 models into a 500 point list.
Then again, one doesn't see Thousand Sons competitively and one likely won't see them at the 500 Point Tournament. So same difference, amirite?
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I'm not worried about winning. I just want to play them and support this idea.
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I'm not worried about winning. I just want to play them and support this idea.
Then I support you and want you to play. And they way the prizes come down by bracket, an 0-2 start doesn't mean you're out of the money entirely.
Can I make a recommendation? In the spirit of the day, tell people you are playing a Five Hundred Sons army.
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done:
6/6 fire warriors
2/2 gun drones
to do:
devil fish
10x kroot
shield drone
2x crisis suits
command suit
broad side
im about half way done the devil fish, but im out of baddab black wash T_T . Also this is the first time i am experimenting with highlighting. I wont update this thing everytime i get a model done, as that will jsut get tedious and be a pain for everyone, but i wanted to celebrate having finished my first full squad. yay!
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Is the Kroot Codex legal for this?
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Is the Kroot Codex legal for this?
Why yes. And why not? :D
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Just a quick update that the announcement draft is good enough to go. So now it's just a matter of writing up the missions and illustrating them.
ETA: I found the Battle for Salvation 500 point packet. We're looking pretty good by comparison. :)
http://www.baldandscreaming.com/Battle%20for%20Salvation%20GT%20500%20Point%20Tournament%20Packet%202011.pdf
Their last mission is intriguing. Basically, tally how much the a nominated HQ unit kills. But I don't see how we can actually make it work. It seems like alot of work to keep track of this during the game, and I suspect there'd be debate over whether we should allow an HQ unit attached to a squad to gets credit or not... This scenario seems like a hot mess. Thoughts?
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Can I use this space to officially petition to ignore the WD "Codex" all together and just use the Witch Hunters Codex for Tournaments?
You can at least make this petition for the 500 tournament, sure.
The WD is literally just a kick in the balls to sisters players in terms of competitive viability, and I think you'll make a lot of people happy by ignoring it completely.
I agree with this, but (and there's always a but)... As this event will need to lean a little on GW prize support (*spoiler*), I don't know what we can do. But I'll ask.
What do people think about this? Sisters have my deepest sympathy, but sometimes a (really, really) bad codex is an army's lot in life.
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As a newer player, I like the sounds of all of this, even the painting part.
I'm still starting up in the hobby, but assembling and painting 500 points worth of units seems like a lot more attainable of a task than 1500. Granted painting isn't what a lot of people got into the hobby for... but I think it makes an event like this a bit more fun, maybe it's just me.
I'll have to figure out a 500 point tyranid army when I get home, but given the smaller board... I'm thinking that something crazy like raveners could be hilarious with some big move and assault ranges.
... Granted it also means they'll be shot in the face a lot earlier, but hey, that's the risk you take! ;D
I'm looking at this as more of a tournament to have fun and mess around with things you might not normally use, just based on the fact that "hey, it's only 500 points!" Of course strategy will still be involved, but it should be entertaining first and foremost.
As far as which codex to use / exclude... I feel like that would be primarily upon the tournament organizers to decide. Which is... all of us. Personally, as long as we're not talking about SEVERELY outdated codexes (codicies? plural of codex anyone?), then I'd say play whatever you'd have fun using.
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I'm looking at this as more of a tournament to have fun and mess around with things you might not normally use, just based on the fact that "hey, it's only 500 points!" Of course strategy will still be involved, but it should be entertaining first and foremost.
This. Exactly this.
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I'm looking at this as more of a tournament to have fun and mess around with things you might not normally use, just based on the fact that "hey, it's only 500 points!" Of course strategy will still be involved, but it should be entertaining first and foremost.
This. Exactly this.
*fingers crossed!* :)
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All armies should use their most recent legal Codex (that has been out for 15 days at least) for all events.
If you don't like GW's terrible job with your army... That is what Warmachine/Hordes is for!
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I did get the okay that this event *could be* the last hurrah for the Witch Hunters codex. After this, it's definitely and definitively all White Dwarf.
A 500 Witch Hunters army could win the tournament. A 500 Sisters of Battle army could win Best Painted... It's a steep drop off, like Thelma and Louise driving over the edge of a cliff in an Immolator.
(http://www.replikultes.net/medias/uploads/films/waynes_world_2/waynes_world_2_42_thelma_et_louise.jpg)
Anyway...
1 vote for Witch Hunters, 1 vote for Sisters of Battle.
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As far as which codex to use / exclude... I feel like that would be primarily upon the tournament organizers to decide. Which is... all of us. Personally, as long as we're not talking about SEVERELY outdated codexes (codicies? plural of codex anyone?), then I'd say play whatever you'd have fun using.
Does this mean I can play 2nd edition Necrons?
wait that would mean..... grey knights get 5+ armor saves from every weapon?
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I vote against necrons using 2nd edition since necrons should suck.
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I vote against necrons using 2nd edition since necrons should suck.
Wait until the new codex when they have a 'something of doominess' like that does what the stormraven has done but with more 'doominess'.
In all seriousness they should use the current codex unless the new one comes out in the meantime. I do hope the new one makes them competitive and is done well.
EDIT: Heard its actually coming out in November.
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Does this mean I can play 2nd edition Necrons?
I don't even see how. In this case, your want > logic.
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Sam and I put our heads together today and came up with a fantastic answer to the registration issue, at least as I saw it.
When the tournament is announced, a future date will be included when registration starts, Xday at Y o'clock. This way, the internet fiends have no advantage over those who check but once every couple days. When the registration hour strikes, then it's first-come, first-serve. I'm thrilled with the idea, and hope it doesn't blow up in our faces. :D
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ka-boom
it just did
also... can i pre pre register? i can right? because im awesome? yeah, that seems fair and logical.
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While for any given tournament I don't have a problem with the Witch Hunters codex, it isn't our codex anymore. At least as of some ill-defined date a week or two or three from now when the grace period runs out. We can wail and gnash our teeth all we want, and I surely will, but it isn't our codex anymore.
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can i pre pre register?
People will want to, and try to, and probably have to have it explained to them why they can not. The only other way is to have people pay the fee upon registration (non-refundable) either at the store or via phone. This hasn't worked well for us in the past.
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But for some reason in different right? because im special?
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The Grace period on the codex is already up.
This has been coming for a while. Hell, Chase allowed DE players to use the new one like the week it came out. Letting someone go back and use an out of date codex is poor form.
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Hell, Chase allowed DE players to use the new one like the week it came out.
Of course. Dark Eldar became the top Xenos codex, and Grey Knights too was used soon after its release. But unlike Sisters, those codices are actually viable and competitive.
Regardless there's been more sentiment expressed against Witch Hunters than for, and that's pretty much it I think. There seem to be more people willing to acknowledge reality than not. :|
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Fair enough. I'll inform the missus that she should start concentrating on her painting, and practicing for Warmahordes :P
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I handed all the material over to Chase, revised and finished to the best of my ability. It's all done but the waiting, I believe.
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Keith, I hadn't noticed this before, but why 15 days? The traditional GW grace period (as far as I know) is one to two months. Not that it really makes any difference in this case, but I'm curious as to where the 15 day period came from. Maybe that's a fantasy thing?
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Keith, I hadn't noticed this before, but why 15 days? The traditional GW grace period (as far as I know) is one to two months.
I was under this impression also, although I don't intend on supporting it in store sponsored events.
Where is that from, Keith?
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Guess what!?!?!? PAINTING UPDATE
done
6/6 fire warriors
4/10 kroot
1/2 devil fish (ran out of paint, but i am getting more tomorrow)
2/2 gun drones
to do
6/10 kroot
2x crisis suits
command suit
broadside
shield drone
basically, school and lack of paint has hampered progress, but i like the way the stuff is coming out.I have never had a really nice painted army, and while this isn't super high quality, it certainly looks nice (at least to m!)
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Emory, at that rate you'll be done easily by November.
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Thats the plan!
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Keith, I hadn't noticed this before, but why 15 days? The traditional GW grace period (as far as I know) is one to two months.
I was under this impression also, although I don't intend on supporting it in store sponsored events.
Where is that from, Keith?
Well, it was halfway between the standard (one month) and Chase (0 days). Either way it will be over a month.
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Here's a 500 point list I'm a bit excited about. It's not broken, or even winning, but it looks fun.
HQ
100 - Master of the Forge
Troops
100 - Scouts (5), Sniper Rifles (4), Missile Launcher (1), Camo Cloaks (5)
100 - Scouts (5), Sniper Rifles (4), Missile Launcher (1), Camo Cloaks (5)
Heavy Support
100 - Thunderfire Cannon
100 - Thunderfire Cannon
It's basically a bunch of 2+ saves, small blast templates and six power fist attacks. The MotF is there only to soak up wounds, but I love the fluff where I've got two Techmarines already on the board. Three's company!
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The event has been posted.
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I just want to be clear, if anything goes wrong with the event, this whole thing was Pat's idea. :D
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I was kind of looking at fun things to do with 'nids for 500 points...
HQ
Tyrant with Sword / Whip and HVC
Elites
Zoanthrope
Hive Guard
Troops
5 Genestealers
10 Hormagaunts (with venom)
Could be fun with two melee, and two blast templates too, heh.
It's either that or go really silly with Raveners... which also sounds fun, if not a bit less viable. :D
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Between the Genestealers and T6 Monstrous Creatures, I believe Tyranids have the potential to perform very well. If someone brings enough anti-tank that could stop big bugs as well, likely they don't have enough anti-infantry.
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I think the problem would be with 500 points, how to field T6 monsters and infantry.
Genestealers are 14 a piece, so a minimum squad of 5 would be 70, and HQ is about 140 base, so we're already talking a decent chunk out of the points there.
I'm sure I can come up with something, but I'm at work right now, unsurprisingly without a codex, so that will have to wait until later.
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Just bring a Carninsectasaurus or whatever they're called. :P
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Yeah, we'll have to see what I can field.
Although now that you mention it, a cannonfex could be hilarious... Carnifex with HVC or HBS...
Moar templates! ;D
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iirc the prime is only 80pts so 80+70+70 (prime and 2 min genestealers) leaves you 280 pts for the MC of your choice.
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I've got a few I'm messing around with, but will probably go for with my Lamenters (KSons didn't work out so great...).
HQ - Librarian w/ Shield of Sanguinus and Unleash Rage - 100
TROOPS
6 Assault Marines w/ melta gun - 128
Power Weapon - 15
Razorback w/ Assault Cannon - 55
Total - 198
5 Assault Marines w/ melta gun - 110
Powerfist - 25
Razorback with Assault Cannon - 55
Total - 195
Not sure on the melta, but I don't want to get caught with my pants down. Thoughts?
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I'd say that looks like a pretty solid BA list. What do you thinking about finding a place for a Sanguinary Priest? You'd probably have to strip out the power weapon, put melta bombs in its place, and lose 1 marine and 1 melta gun. Hmm... I know the kids love Feel No Pain these days, but it's consistently let me down. Anyway, it's possible.
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My Initial thoughts:
Herald of Tzeentch on Chariot
5x Bloodcrushers (all the bells and whistles)
2x5 bloodletters
doesn't get much more basic than that.
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Jared could go all Tzeentch.
2 Heralds of Tzeentch, Chariots, Bolts
3 squads of 5 Horrors, bolts, 1 Changeling
Don't have a reference on hand for points, but I'm pretty sure that'll work. Might even be able to work in a Daemon Prince of Tzeentch by taking out another unit.
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well, this painting log isn't going to update itself!
done
6/6 fire warriors
devilfish
2/2 crisis suits
8/10 kroot
to do
command suit
broadside
shield drone
2 kroot
(I really like how the kroot are coming out, this is the first time i have had an army i am actually happy about the appearance of, my old nids were an eyesore and no mistake)
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Figured it'd be a good time to bump this thread and remind people registration starts today (Monday) at noon.
And here's a different Space Marines list than the ones I've been toying with. All of these lists are really lean! You can probably beat this one. :)
Librarian, Null Zone, Might of the Ancients, Combi-melta (115)
Scouts x5, Missile Launcher, Sniper Rifles x4, Camo Cloaks (100)
Tactical Squad, Melta, Missile Launcher, Combi-melta, Razorback w/ TL Assault Cannon (285)
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And just like that... ITS ALL PAINTED! and of course now i feel like changing my list T_T sigh, back to the painting table.
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Cool.
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Talking about Painting working on my Super Captain right now finally getting the paint job Gotham Deserves.
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My crack at Grey Knights, 500 points.
HQ
Coteaz (100)
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, Psycannon, Servo Skull x2 (46)
Troops
Inquisitorial Henchman Warband, Inquisitorial Servitor x3, Multi-melta x3, Chimera (85)
Inquisitorial Henchman Warband, Inquisitorial Servitor x3, Multi-melta x3, Chimera (85)
Inquisitorial Henchman Warband, Warrior Acolyte x4, meltagun x2, storm bolter x2, Rhino (92)
Inquisitorial Henchman Warband, Warrior Acolyte x4, meltagun x2, storm bolter x2, Rhino (92)
500 points.
If anyone else brings as much anti-mech, this list is in trouble!
The inquisitors hop in with the Servitors to keep them running.
The Warrior Acolytes are funny. One has a meltagun, one has a storm bolter, one has both and one has none. Let the wound allocation begin!
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Yeah henchmen, guard and orks are def the most scary at 500. Guard can do a company command and two vets in chimeras and two hydra flaks. 5 armor 12 vehicles at 500 PTS is scary. Wish I had orks, they could be really beastly.
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My crack at Grey Knights, 500 points.
HQ
Coteaz (100)
Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, Psycannon, Servo Skull x2 (46)
Troops
Inquisitorial Henchman Warband, Inquisitorial Servitor x3, Multi-melta x3, Chimera (85)
Inquisitorial Henchman Warband, Inquisitorial Servitor x3, Multi-melta x3, Chimera (85)
Inquisitorial Henchman Warband, Warrior Acolyte x4, meltagun x2, storm bolter x2, Rhino (92)
Inquisitorial Henchman Warband, Warrior Acolyte x4, meltagun x2, storm bolter x2, Rhino (92)
500 points.
Henchmen are honestly the nastiest army at this points level. Cheap heavies from Servitors, cheap access to Transports, and none of those useless "extra bodies" to drag them down. Yes, Coteaz is required, but it's not like Coteaz is dead weight on his own (I'm looking at you, Crowe). Screwing with Reserves and virtual immunity to Seize the Initiative is nice, especially since a Seize is particularly devastating at 500 points.
A note, though - Inquisitors can't take Psycannons unless they're in TDA, as you must replace "Terminator Armour's Storm Bolter." Still, 80p for a 3W TDA Psycannon is nothing to shake a stick at.
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A note, though - Inquisitors can't take Psycannons unless they're in TDA, as you must replace "Terminator Armour's Storm Bolter." Still, 80p for a 3W TDA Psycannon is nothing to shake a stick at.
And that's why we have Sam check all the lists. :D I would contemplate taking that 30 points then and giving one squad of Servitors all Plasma Cannons.
If the units are forced out of the Chimeras, they'll be in some trouble. Plus, I don't think this list will have enough oomph to stop horde Orks. If someone has even a halfway decent Orks list, I'd like to see it. The only one I've seen so far is something like 120 grots.
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well, i think i have my list nailed down! this does however mean i need to paint another model though, but i have like half a month, so im not worried.
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List I ran tonight at the store.
Bloodthirster, BotBG, Death Strike, UM, Instrument (300)
Pink Horrors x5, Bolt, Changeling (100)
Pink Horrors x5, Bolt (95)
I played against Pat's Space Marines biker list in the Spearhead Table Quarters scenario. Pat's mistake was giving me first turn. I dropped the Bloodthirster and the Changeling squad extremely well. Horrors shot, did two wounds, anti-infantry bikers failed both armor saves and ran off the board. Space Marines then charged the Bloodthirster, who only took one wound in close combat as he killed the squad first, then the Captain. So auto-win, with 500 VP scored and 0 lost.
I still like Pat's biker list alot; only luck was on the Daemons side this time as it is every time they win.
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oh hey 5s to hit 6s to wound
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Changes are going to that list not just you but the game after I had some issues. The Bikes don't hold up well in the Mid-range to close area with the low Model count and the smaller table size doesn't let me utilize them to the best of their ability.
New List Idea:
Captain on a Bike-Relic Blade
2 Bike Squad- 3 Regular bikes, Melta Bike, and Attack Bike with Heavy Bolter
I get one more Wound out of the squad and an additional 3 shots at Strength 5. I lose Close Combat stuff but If I am assaulting a Squad my Captain will be going with them to handle that aspect.
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Don't forget bikes have Relentless, that's part of what makes them good. I'd play keep-away with the bikes and shoot people from a distance.
In my case, I landed well and you thought it better to assault. But I would have had a hard time catching you, even with wings. I'll gladly give you a rematch if you want to try that tactic, because I think it would be more effective. And it's unlikely I'd get a bike squad to run away again.
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Ya well this new strategy is to focus more on that generally the smaller board hurts the list more than helps it because I have a tighter circle to run around in.
Range shots at 24" on old list maxed out at 11 the New List would make it 17 with those extra shots being strength 5. 12" makes it now 2 melta guns and still have 24 bolter type shots coming at you old list gave me 1 melta and about 20 Bolter shots.
The only thing I would suffer with the new List is that close combat aspect but the only things I really want to assault are Tau and Necrons.
Ya charging into Bloodthirster wasn't the best move but it was practice and the numbers just don't work for it and now I saw where I would like to go with it.
Sure I would love a rematch hopefully I will have some stuff painted and can be there Next Thursday or something.
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Been playing around with this list this week testing against my nightmare; DE (2 venoms, 2 ravagers.) Fairly happy with how it has played although I can certainly see some issues I may have. I would love to find the points to put in either another fiend or change the instruments to rending in the crusher unit.
Herald of Tzeentch- Chariot, Bolt of Tzeentch 95
2 Bloodcrushers- instrument 85
2 Bloodcrushers- instrument 85
2 Fiends 60
5 Bloodletters 80
5 Horrors 95
Going to mess around with list today and hopefully get some more testing in. Might drop one crusher and do one unit of 3. Should let me do what I want but then I have to rely more on multi assault.
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Bill, the only thing I'd probably consider testing is a naked (or close to it) Herald of Khorne. It can free up some points to beef up the other units. The Herald can live with a Bloodcrusher squad.
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My worry is Nids with monstrous creatures, highly mechanized units and lists that take termniators as troops. I've been toying with a list to counter such armies, but I'm worried that it might leave me too light on troops.
1 Space Marine Librarian with Smite and Machine Curse 100 pts
5 Scouts with sniper rifles 75 pts
5 Scouts with sniper rifles 75 pts
2 Predator Destructors 120 pts (ea)
The left over 10 points will probably go to melta bombs for the Scout Sgts.
As an alternative I would replace one of the Predators with a Vindicator, thereby saving 5 points, leaving me with 15 pts that I would use on camo cloaks for one of the scout units; hopefully improving their survivability.
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The Space Marines and most MEQ armies have a difficult time at 500, no doubt. I've written up some SM lists in this thread, and they're okay, but they don't bring all the tools I would need.
My first 500 SM lists looked like yours, but I realized Scouts are too inconvenient as my only Troops choice. If the Scouts move out of terrain, they're essentially dead. The Librarian didn't quite fit in anywhere. And mathhammer suggested against the threats you've rightly assessed, I'd probably be off the table faster than I care to be.
I think the front AV 13 of Predators could hold up nicely, though. If you end up taking a Tac squad, you'd only be able to afford one of them.
So here's another list.
Librarian, Null Zone & Might of the Ancients
Tac x5, Sarge w/ combi-melta & power fist, Rhino
Tac x5, Sarge w/ combi-melta, power sword & meltabombs, Rhino
Scouts x5, Sniper rifles x4, Missile Launcher
And if you like the Predators more, take out a Tac squad for 2 or the Scout squad for 1.
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Yeah, the rhinos might offer more protection, but the are definitely a points sink. I totally agree that lack of cover makes taking Scouts a risky proposition, but the savings in points that they offer is hard to ignore. One of the first army lists I devised addressed this weakness by padding out their numbers.
2 (10 man) Sniper Squads - 9x Sniper Rifles & Missile Launcher
1 Space Marine Librarian - w/ Null Zone & Machine Curse
1 Space Marine Librarian - w/ Smite & Machine Curse
The advantage to the 10 man Scout squads is survivablity and the increased statistical probablity of rending with the increased number of sniper shots. The disadvantages are of course trying to hie such a large squad in cover, vulnerability to being charged, and the small size of the board not really being optimal for "standoff and shoot armies", There is also a sever lack of heavy firepower.
One alternative that I've considered is dropping the Second Librarian in favor of a Squad of 2 Attack Bikes with multi-meltas. I would also trade out the missile launchers, in the scout squads, for heavy bolters. I lose the heavy punch to take out vehicles, but wounding on 2+ (special ammo) might be more useful. The heavy bolter's higher rate of fire also increases the statisitcal probability of hitting with the Scout's lower BS. It also still retains enough strength to potentially penetrate lightly armored vehicles, like speeders, rhinos, ork trucks, chimeras, etc.
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I would also trade out the missile launchers, in the scout squads, for heavy bolters.
I just ran some numbers with the scouts. Let's start with the obvious, then get to math.
Against AV 12, 13 and 14, the missile launcher stands alone in damage potential. You want to take a Predator, so you know higher AV will make itself known, and you must assume your opponent will give you the side armor you want.
Against AV 10, you're right that the Heavy Bolter does have a slight edge in causing a glance or a pen. (Equation is simply avg number of hits * % of damage results)
HB = 50%
ML = 42%
Volume of fire pays off here.
Against AV 11 however, the Missile Launcher takes the lead.
HB = 25%
ML = 33%
Also, those numbers don't give consideration to the fact MLs can pentrate, while the HB cannot.
It is safe to say that the Heavy Bolter carries a significantly higher damage potential against groups of Infantry. Where both wound on 2+ against the majority of Monstrous Creatures, I'd rather fire an AP3 krak missile rather than an AP - hellfire shell.
What it comes down to is what you anticipate on fighting.
Bigger squads of Scouts is certainly an interesting proposition. You may want to consider Telion at some point. Telion would work whether you go HB or ML in your squad and you wouldn't have to buy Camo Cloaks.
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Just a thought, how many troop choices are people planning on bringing, I personally cant justify taking more that the minimum, is any one going to be taking more than just 2?
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It wouldn't surprise me up to see a couple lists up to the max of 6. Some armies have really, really cheap Troops options.
Space Marines could buy 3 squads of 10 Scouts and combat squad them for 6 scoring units, so you could see those variations as well.
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2 Tervigons as troops (with the required 2 squads of termagants) and a Prime comes to exactly 500. How many people can deal with 2 Monstrous Creatures that are T6 with 6 wounds scoring with the ability to spawn more scoring units?!
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It's an interesting idea, would you be able to have any psychic powers on them or other upgrades to help out the spawned Terms?
I can't really remember how much a Prime costs, but I feel like it would be really tight on points for any upgraded weapons / biomorphs / psychic abilities.
2 x Tervigon at 160 each (320)
2 x Termagants (10) at 5 each (100)
1 x Tyranid Prime at ?? each
So the Prime would have to be 70-80, and then you'd be dry on points.
The only problems I'd really see with this list is that there's really just about nothing you could do to any enemy vehicles. Tervigons wouldn't want to get close, as they could pop, Terms with Spikefists wouldn't be able to do much... and I'm not really certain on what a Prime could do to one.
It would definitely give people issues via sheer numbers, but I think it would have issues with Vehicles and MEQ units, but maybe that's just my perspective on it.
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Well, sadly, a schedule conflict is going to prevent me from making this tourney. For giggles, here's the list I was planning to use:
IG - 500 points about 500 points
Primaris Psyker (70)
Veteran Squad (10) w/ 3 Grenade Launchers - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (140)
Veteran Squad (10) w/ 2 Meltaguns, Plasma Gun - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (160)
Vendetta Gunship (130)
Primaris rides with the GL Vets to spit out 3+2d6 S6 shots at turn from 24". Melta/Plasma Vets and Vendetta are self-explanatory. Mephiston eat your heart out.
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Well, sadly, a schedule conflict is going to prevent me from making this tourney.
You hitting up Mechanicon? I know some players heading out for that who would have otherwise played in the 500.
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You hitting up Mechanicon? I know some players heading out for that who would have otherwise played in the 500.
Nah, sadly the time commitment is work-related. I wanted to thank you for putting this together, btw, it looks like it's going to be a lot of fun. Hope you enjoy it :)
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Nah, sadly the time commitment is work-related. I wanted to thank you for putting this together, btw, it looks like it's going to be a lot of fun. Hope you enjoy it :)
Thanks! My hope is that if all goes well, we'll be able to put on another similar event. All we have to do is merely live up to the hype. :)
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So, I'm signed up for this, but I am wicked, wicked torn about which race to play.
I've been on a pretty solid GK kick recently, but as some people may have noticed, it's really, really hard to fit a non-henchman list in 500 pts. (and I don't have the models for henchmen)
The other option is Tau, which I certainly do have painted up and ready to go. (though, notably not nearly as well painted as my GK, but I somehow doubt my GK would win the painting award, even though they're not bad).
Two lists look something like this:
500 Pts - Grey Knights Roster - 500 pts with daemonblade
Total Roster Cost: 500
HQ: Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (1#, 40 pts)
1 Ordo Malleus Inquisitor, 40 pts = (base cost 25 + Daemonblade x1 15)
Troops: Grey Knight Strike Squad (10#, 240 pts)
1 Grey Knight Strike Squad, 20 pts + Psybolt Ammunition 20
1 Justicar, 20 pts
2 Grey Knights, 60 pts = 2 * 30 (base cost 20 + Psycannon 10)
7 Grey Knights, 140 pts = 7 * 20
Troops: Grey Knight Strike Squad (6#, 160 pts)
1 Grey Knight Strike Squad, 0 pts
1 Justicar, 20 pts
1 Grey Knight, 30 pts = (base cost 20 + Psycannon 10)
3 Grey Knights, 60 pts = 3 * 20
1 Razorback, 50 pts = (base cost 45 + Psybolt Ammunition 5)
Elite: Paladin Squad (1#, 60 pts)
1 Paladin Squad, 0 pts
1 Paladin, 60 pts = (base cost 55 + Master-craft Nemesis Weapon(s) 5)
I like this list, it has a good base, quite a bit of scoring, (though I notice you only have 2 and 1/2 missions that are objective based) some Str 5 shots, 3 psycannons, a heavy psybolter for range, and the paladin to cause some hearty disruption. Nothing fancy, really but it seems like it'll get the job done. The daeomonblade is just there for a lark, because when else would I ever take it? 500 pts is small enough that it could potentially affect things.
But conversely, look what I can do with Tau:
500 Pts - Tau Empire Roster - Tau list with an Ion head
Total Roster Cost: 500
Troops: Kroot Carnivore Squad (11#, 77 pts)
11 Kroot Carnivore Squad, 77 pts = 11 * 7
Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10
Heavy Support: Hammerhead Gunship (1#, 140 pts)
1 Hammerhead Gunship, 140 pts = (base cost 90 + Ion Cannon 15 + Smart Missile System 20 + Disruption Pod 5 + Multi-Tracker 10)
Heavy Support: Hammerhead Gunship (1#, 130 pts)
1 Hammerhead Gunship, 130 pts = (base cost 90 + Ion Cannon 15 + Two Burst Cannons 10 + Disruption Pod 5 + Multi-Tracker 10)
HQ: Commander Shas'el (1#, 93 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el, 93 pts = (base cost 50 + Hard-wired Multi-tracker 5 + Plasma Rifle 20 + Twin Linked Missile Pod 18)
2 Hammerheads! 6 Str 7 Ap3 shots! That'll de-mech you, and sorry you ever wore power armor. As has been pointed out, the list can cover the entire board with shooting. It also occurs to me that Kroot are quite good at this pt level.
The Ion cannon is ridiculously cost efficient. You usually never see it, because the Rail gun can do so much more, but at the pt level, I think it makes sense.
It does occur to me that this list has nothing, at all, that can handle AV14. If someone was crazy and brought a LR, I'd be screwed. Feels slightly unlikely, though.
Which do you guys think is the better list?
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I see why you like the Tau list more. It is more well-rounded. But that's in part because the Paladin in the GK list seems so out of place. For that 60 points, you could have another Razorback, even if it's an empty firebase.
Also, I would be extraordinarily disappointed if no one brings a Land Raider. I'm pretty sure Black Templar and Blood Angels can squeeze one in.
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Templar unfotunately cannot, stupid mandatory emp champ. I believe any marine that can take scouts as troops can.
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I see why you like the Tau list more. It is more well-rounded. But that's in part because the Paladin in the GK list seems so out of place. For that 60 points, you could have another Razorback, even if it's an empty firebase.
Also, I would be extraordinarily disappointed if no one brings a Land Raider. I'm pretty sure Black Templar and Blood Angels can squeeze one in.
I'm confused, I hear a slightly contradictory message here. The GK list can actually handle a LR pretty well, with Psycannons, while the Tau list couldn't. I also wouldn't call the Tau list balanced, it's leaning on the Hammerheads pretty completely.
The lone paladin, hereby called a "Solodin" actually works great. Remember, it has Holocaust, it's basically a one man DSing large Str 5 blast. Plus the thing is disproportionately hard to kill (for 55 pts), so it's annoyance factor is huge. The Killer App for it is when the opponent has something like huge block of lootas that need a bad day, or for cheap late scoring in a Darigo-wing list (you actually keep in reserve longer using psychic communion, if you can.)
The main downside to the Solodin is that it's a cheap kill point. But none of your missions have Kill points, so there you are. In terms of victory points, it's probably a harder 55 pts to score than GKSS.
In other news, I managed to massage the Tau list to get a Rail gun in. Required dropping the plasma cannon on the Shas'El, and a Kroot (sigh), but it's probably more powerful over all. That's assuming someone doesn't score a lucky lascannon shot. But with AV13 and an inherent 4+ save to anything more than 12" away, I'm probably OK.
Oh! I also had to give up the multi-tracker on one of them, the railhead is only moving 6" a turn. (double-sigh)
500 Pts - Tau Empire Roster - Tau list with an Ion head
Total Roster Cost: 500
Troops: Kroot Carnivore Squad (10#, 70 pts)
10 Kroot Carnivore Squad, 70 pts = 10 * 7
Troops: Fire Warrior (6#, 60 pts)
6 Fire Warrior, 60 pts = 6 * 10
Heavy Support: Hammerhead Gunship (1#, 155 pts)
1 Hammerhead Gunship, 155 pts = (base cost 90 + Railgun 50 + Two Burst Cannons 10 + Disruption Pod 5)
Heavy Support: Hammerhead Gunship (1#, 130 pts)
1 Hammerhead Gunship, 130 pts = (base cost 90 + Ion Cannon 15 + Two Burst Cannons 10 + Disruption Pod 5 + Multi-Tracker 10)
HQ: Commander Shas'el (1#, 85 pts)
1 Commander Shas'el, 85 pts = (base cost 50 + Fusion Blaster 12 + Hard-wired Multi-tracker 5 + Twin Linked Missile Pod 18)
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Templar unfotunately cannot, stupid mandatory emp champ. I believe any marine that can take scouts as troops can.
"Every Black Templars army of at least 750 points must include an Emperor's Champion." (p. 31)
This is one of those rare games you don't have to take him!
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Oh snap! I never played under 1k and never noticed that rule lol.
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My vote for Tau:
Shas'el Battlesuit w/ Plasma Rifle, Burst Cannon, Multi-Tracker (83)
Crisis Battlesuit w/ Twin-Linked Missile Pod, Flamer (47)
Crisis Battlesuit w/ Twin-Linked Missile Pod, Flamer (47)
Crisis Battlesuit w/ Twin-Linked Missile Pod, Flamer (47)
6 Fire Warriors (60)
10 Kroot (70)
Broadside w/ Black Sun Filter (73)
Broadside w/ Black Sun Filter (73)
You might have trouble killing marines, but boy will Mech-spam hate you, and you'll be a pain in the arse to pin down.
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Or for even more fun:
Inquisitor Coteaz (100)
Ordo Whatever Inquisitor w/ Servo Skull (28)
3xInquisitorial Servitors w/ Multi-Meltas - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Bolter (85)
3xInquisitorial Servitors w/ Multi-Meltas - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Bolter (85)
3xAcolytes - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (67)
3xAcolytes - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (67)
3xAcolytes - in Chimera w/ Hull Heavy Flamer (67)
Suck it, Imperial Guard :P
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Well, I dunno how much Rhino spam you need to contend with in 500 pts. The two Ionheads or an Ionhead and railhead, with the Shas'El with missiles, seem more than enough to deal with 3 or 4 rhinos, which is the most I could envision seeing.
The main thing driving the hammerheads over cheaper broadsides is survivability. AV13 with an automatic 4+ cover is about as survivable as a Land Raider, in my experience. The fact I can be the full 60" away the board allows, even moreso.
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wait, an acolyte is only 4 points!?!?!? what are their stats and war gear?
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wait, an acolyte is only 4 points!?!?!? what are their stats and war gear?
They're Guardsmen (i.e., 3s across the board) except they have LD8. They have a Laspistol, CCW, and Flak Armor. They notably do not have any grenades, but you only need to take 3 to take a transport.
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Well, I dunno how much Rhino spam you need to contend with in 500 pts.
Did you see that post above yours? 5 Chimeras should give you some idea of the high end.
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Yes, the very high end. I wouldn't expect the Tau list to have any trouble with that at all. Nothing in that army can even scratch the Hammerheads (good luck getting those MM even with 24" of me), and the Tau should be able to reliably open up at least one chimera a turn. The weakness of a list like that is that the troops inside might as well be smoke.
The foot GK list would have some trouble from the dakka. The solution, of course, is to DS on their position, shoot side armor for a likely pop and get stuck in the turn after. That's easier to say than to do, of course.
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You are aware it is a 4x4 table. How do you expect to be able to be more than 24" away for more than 1 turn?
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Yeah, with deployment, movement, and a nice surround a tau devilfish isn't going to be able to outmanuever 5 chimeras on a 4x4 board.
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try this one out for size. either this
shas'el
TL missile pods, flamer
shield drone
3x 2x shas'ui
TL missile pods, flamer
6x fire warriors
10x kroot
boom
or
shas'el
TL fusion guns, flamer
black sun filter
2x 6x fire warriors
broadside
black sun filter
broadside
black sun filter
2x broadside
1 with target lock
1with gun drone
boom. 4 broadsides. be that guy, i dare you.
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boom. 4 broadsides. be that guy, i dare you.
Ha, yeah sure, because no one is bringing a cheap horde list at all. :P
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You are aware it is a 4x4 table. How do you expect to be able to be more than 24" away for more than 1 turn?
Because the Chimeras with the Multi-meltas can't move and fire, at all. And while they can advance 12" and fire the turn after, that's not that scary. First of all, pretty sure I can pop those two chimeras by turn 2. Second, while a Melta at 24" can kill a hammerhead, it's very unlikely to.
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try this one out for size. either this
shas'el
TL missile pods, flamer
shield drone
3x 2x shas'ui
TL missile pods, flamer
6x fire warriors
10x kroot
boom
or
shas'el
TL fusion guns, flamer
black sun filter
2x 6x fire warriors
broadside
black sun filter
broadside
black sun filter
2x broadside
1 with target lock
1with gun drone
boom. 4 broadsides. be that guy, i dare you.
In the first list I would want either a Fusion blaster or two, or a Broadside. It's just that if some kackass brings predators, or hammerheads, vindicators, or even a Land Raider (yes, you can fit it) you have literally no answer to that.
Conversely, in the second list, I don't see why you need 4 Broadsides. I think realistically, you won't see more than 3 rhinos. (I think the 5 chimera list is a little silly) Congrats, you kill those pretty much first turn. Now what? You're killing a little less than 2 MEQs a turn, in cover with them?
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Because the Chimeras with the Multi-meltas can't move and fire, at all. And while they can advance 12" and fire the turn after, that's not that scary. First of all, pretty sure I can pop those two chimeras by turn 2. Second, while a Melta at 24" can kill a hammerhead, it's very unlikely to.
Does your math account for cover saves?
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Also, any damage on the hammerhead is crippling. 1 means that almost 40% of your army won't be able to shoot for an entire turn. 2 is the same, except you won't be able to run from the meltas. 3 is absolutely devastating for obvious reasons, 4 means you can't run from the meltas, and 5 and 6? well they just suck.
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Well, yes, the Hammerhead does get cover from anything outside of 12". ;D
As far as the chimera goes, I hadn't actually done the math, but.....even with smoke launchers, not terribly worried about it.
Say the two vehicles start 24.1" apart. First turn 12" move, pop smoke, now it's 12.1" away (realistically, I can probably slide side ways get a little more distance, but whatever). Now the MMs can either stay there.......or not shoot.
My chance to "stop" a Chimera with a rail gun is 51.85%, obviously half that if they popped smoke. 29.63% chance to kill.
For the Ion cannon, it's 29.77% to "stop", 10.7% to kill, half with smoke.
This is assuming, in both cases that I don't veer to the corners, making him chase each hammerhead with each chimera, and I am then able to "cross the streams" and hit the other chimera in the side. (hint: terrain permitting, I can probably do that)
Now, conversely, each Multi-Melta, outside 12", has a 6.25% chance to "stop" (weapon destoyed and shaken aren't counted in this, but I don't feel like recalculating everything) and a 3.01% chance to kill the hammerhead (this is counting cover). WHHHHHHHHHEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!
Granted, he does have 6 meltas, but I just don't think it will even get to that point, and the chances are pretty low even if they do.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnFuN-yY7GTydDNHWnZMUHhXaGdkR3ZYQ1ZGQ2FabXc&hl=en_US&pli=1#gid=0
I'm getting my data from this spreadsheet I started, but others have been collaborating on it since, so I'm not in complete control of it anymore. For instance, the Hammerhead Rail gun calculations under the "Tau" tab look to be just plain wrong, but I had separate calculations under the "calculations page" that I used.
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What happens when he comes at you from two angles?
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Also, any damage on the hammerhead is crippling. 1 means that almost 40% of your army won't be able to shoot for an entire turn.
Well, yeah, but that's kinda like the hypothetical LR list at 500 pts. If the LR dies, you're f**'d, the thing is, that's probably pretty hard to do.
2 is the same, except you won't be able to run from the meltas. 3 is absolutely devastating for obvious reasons, 4 means you can't run from the meltas, and 5 and 6? well they just suck.
Not sure what you're getting at here. The MMs can't move and shoot, and that makes it actually pretty hard for them to target something that wants to run from them, even on a small board. Also, the list referenced only has 2 MM groups, that's apparently all that they can afford, and you can really only have two groups of them anyway, since they need to be escorted by a inquisitor or they'll have a brain fart.
I don't like MMs servitors, they seem to depend upon your enemy being stupid. The 5 chimera list seems ok, since it has a good volume of Dakka, but it'll fall flat against the Hammerheads.
Hammerheads really have to worry about Deepstriking/outflanking Meltas, and to a lesser extent, fast MMs like on land speeders and attack bikes.
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What happens when he comes at you from two angles?
You mean like from the front left and the front right? Then that's great! It means I get side shots on AV10 with the other hammerhead. That's what I meant when I said "crossing the streams".
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Chimeras needn't rely on smoke launchers for cover, they can use each other and terrain for cover as well.
Also, the melta weapons are not on the Chimera, but rather wielded by the soldiers inside. Destroying up the transport is just Step 1.
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This is all fantastic conversation I am really enjoying it but it will without a doubt be infantry that win at 500 pt games I think to Ben's point what is inside is a huge part of it. Than again I am so lost at this point level so I am super excited even though I feel like a total newbie. With the experience i have in my practice games, 30 man shoota boyz, battlesuits, and bladestorming dire avengers (yeah that's right!) scare me more than anything so far. Than again, I play daemons.
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Yes, well, maybe we'll just have to try it out and see. ;D
The other list I'm considering is basically all some variation of 20 GK with psycannons and an Inquisitor, probably with Daemonblade. (cuz that seems fun, and might actually have a meaningful effect at a small point level)
Kinda wished I lived/worked near you guys, none of the Ard Boyz folks really seem interested in trying out any 500 pts lists.
SO, Ben, are you going to be the T.O. for this event? Are you playing yourself?
I kinda really want to run Farsight. 'Course, his rules specifically say he may only played in games of 1500 pts or more (yeah, like taking him would be worse than say, Draigo). Any interest in letting me break that rule and bring farsight?
How about Forge World? I have the Shas'o R'ymr model, that could be fun.
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The Battleground staff will be TO'ing the event. Ben (and co.) took the idea, ran with it, designed the tournament, prize pay out, scenarios, and playtested them. Many of them will be playing.
Expect the event to be run like a typical Battleground event, only with 5 different 45 minute rounds, and a "Win - Loss" system vs. a "Battle Points" system.
Sam Pearson will be the referee.
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Ok, then, can I run farsight, despite it not being 1500 pts?
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>.> No. The real winners at this event are the ones who have 2 wheels on their models :P.
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Ok, then, can I run farsight, despite it not being 1500 pts?
Unfortunately, no. Players will be bound by all the normal rules governing the game with the exception of the rules mentioned in the event post.
Army lists must be 500 points or lower and you're bound by that, for better or for worse.
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I communicate quite a bit. Side effect, sometimes it presents the illusion like I'm somehow in charge of something. :D
I am playing (and only playing), showing up to push models around and soak up the entire spectacle.
It should also be noted that paint/model judging will be handled also by BG-selected personnel.
I also want to note, the whole strategy and planning discussions, what should work and what shouldn't... it's pretty awesome. I like conversations with facts proving different points, and I like those conversations to happen as this one has, without the immature crap the Internet is known for. It can't last forever, but I am enjoying the moment.
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Well, I'm still kinda torn between the all infantry GK list (which is also much better painted, since I did my Tau like damn, maybe 8 years ago?) and the Tau Hammerhead based list.
I think the GK would be probably all deepstrike, forgo transports all together, use the fact that 24" can cover a small board to my advatage. Kinda a fragile list, in a way, since GK are so expensive, but huge Dakka, and should be able to deal pretty well with all things that come it's way. Also, I kinda want to try the daemonblade, and this seems like the place, but of course the Inquisitor can't DS.
On the other hand, we have a dual Hammerhand list with some supporting troops ans a Shas'El. Seems kinda unbeatable, actually, with a notable vulnerablility to deep struck meltas. (no, I still don't fear that chimera list) I also wonder if it can get flooded by somethign like Orks, but I don't think so.
I haven't played my Tau in like 2 years, though, at least.
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deep striking meltas (cough fusion guns) eh? nope none of those here... just us owls ;)
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well, just submitted my list, no going back now. at least this way i wont be up at 2 in the morning of the tourney furiously painting models because i decided to change my list again.
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And it won't be checked until the middle of next week, so we won't even be telling you if somethings wrong until then! ;)
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Well, I just submitted my list. I figured I'll share. Why not? You can probably beat this. I'm just hoping not to mishap.
Chaos Daemons
HQ
Lord of Change (Instrument of Chaos, Master of Sorcery, We Are Legion) [305]
Troops
Pink Horrors x4 & Changeling (Bolt of Tzeentch) [100]
Pink Horrors x5 (Bolt of Tzeentch) [95]
Total 500
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So.....a shooty daemon list, very interesting.
In my Tau list, I would fear the Bolts against side armor on the Hammerheads a good bit.
If I failed the ld check against the changleing with a Hammerhead, that would be very, very bad, but it's also somewhat unlikely.
BTW, is this Ben with the Salamander's, dragon on the side painted by his wife, or a different Ben, btw?
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No this is not Ben Mohile.
So, in a shooty deamon list you would fear the shooting? Insightful.
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Ummm, more that he would be able to get the Bolts pretty easily on my side armor, and possibly to be within 12" (to get inside the disruption pod).
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Turns out I might be able to make it to this thing after all! I guess now that my list is public, y'all have no excuses for losing to it :P
I'd just like to say that I'll be very disappointed if nobody packs Mephiston into their list, as I lost a lot of sleep worrying how to deal with him. A good portion of the lists discussed here will just fold to him with barely even a fight, let alone his supporting Marines.
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So.....a shooty daemon list, very interesting.
Had I the models, my ideal list would have looked something like 3 Heralds of Tzeentch on Chariots and two Horror squads. Or two Chariots and three Horror squads. I was very close to taking Fateweaver, but those extra 30 points I just couldn't afford.
In testing, the Changeling was invaluable! Not against vehicles, but against low-Ld infantry like Fire Warriors and Kroot, no one really wanted to shoot at him.
I realized early on Daemons really won't have the ability to weather shooting like I do with the bigger point values. Mono-Tzeentch builds are the most viable and competitive Daemon builds from 500-2000.
And no, I'm not Ben Mohile. I wish I had his skills and his sweet painted army. I'm don't think I'm known really outside of Battleground.
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Shooty Daemons make Templatenids scared...
... but only a little, and not really, I just need to know what part to NOT bite. :P
We shall meet on the field of battle! Well, about half the board away from each other.
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So.....a shooty daemon list, very interesting.
I realized early on Daemons really won't have the ability to weather shooting like I do with the bigger point values. Mono-Tzeentch builds are the most viable and competitive Daemon builds from 500-2000.
I wish you the best Ben but for my sake I hope this is wrong or I'm in trouble. Haha.
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Turns out I might be able to make it to this thing after all! I guess now that my list is public, y'all have no excuses for losing to it :P
I'd just like to say that I'll be very disappointed if nobody packs Mephiston into their list, as I lost a lot of sleep worrying how to deal with him. A good portion of the lists discussed here will just fold to him with barely even a fight, let alone his supporting Marines.
You're now number 2 on the alternates list. I expect 2ish people to drop, so your chances are pretty good, Matt.
I haven't spent a lot of time checking lists yet, but I don't think I've seen Mephiston.
Ninja edit: You're now number 1 on the alternates list. :)
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I wish you the best Ben but for my sake I hope this is wrong or I'm in trouble. Haha.
Ha! Somehow, I'm sure you'll be fine. I know as long as you're not running Deathwing, your dice will hold up. And let's not forget, you're up for the hat trick of Battleground Singles events. The betting line is Souza vs the field.
I'm sure I'll end up across from 4 Chimeras and need to yell at the idiot who designed this event.
Addendum: Say whaaaaat? No Mephiston?
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Addendum: Say whaaaaat? No Mephiston?
You'll have to ask Sam, although that's probably bad etiquette. He's checking lists, as usual.
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Mephiston is a huge risk. More so than something like a Baal and two razors. No inv save and his uberness will only take him so far. Anytime you invest half points in one thing it is a big risk.
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I wish you the best Ben but for my sake I hope this is wrong or I'm in trouble. Haha.
Ha! Somehow, I'm sure you'll be fine. I know as long as you're not running Deathwing, your dice will hold up. And let's not forget, you're up for the hat trick of Battleground Singles events. The betting line is Souza vs the field.
I'm sure I'll end up across from 4 Chimeras and need to yell at the idiot who designed this event.
Addendum: Say whaaaaat? No Mephiston?
Yeah I would love to pull the hat trick but this is very different than a normal singles. Very different game at 500 that is very foreign to me. Especially with a W/L system. With that being said I am super excited for the challenge.
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Yeah I would love to pull the hat trick but this is very different than a normal singles. Very different game at 500 that is very foreign to me. Especially with a W/L system. With that being said I am super excited for the challenge.
I'm glad to hear this. I was concerned with how the more competitive, tournament players would react to the idea. I thought the concept was cool, different, and uncommon. It certainly seems to have a casual appeal. I'm glad people of all ability levels and experience can find something to appreciate about the event.
I hope it ends up being as cool as it seems.
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Well, from a more casual / new player standpoint...
I'm looking forward to playing and getting destroyed in the tournament, and having a ton of fun in the process! ;D
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Frost I would not worry about it, I doubt you will get destroyed. There are a couple lists that are really brutal and are clearly win at all costs. I really cannot see anyone in the BG community fielding these, as the mood of this seems to be more an event and less of a tourny, if they do than more power to em. I know I certainly am looking forward to playing a casual list in 5 casual games.
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Yeah bill is right, I am sure we will see one list with 4 chimeras, another with 60 boyz, one with two tervigons, and a whole lot of other shenanigans, but gimmicks are just that gimmicks, and i think who ever said it first (chase maybe?) was right that it is probably going to be a balanced list that takes it.
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Well, I dunno, is the 2 hammerhead list I'm planning WAAC? I think it's pretty good, but I also think stomping around with two of the biggest tanks in the game is plain fun.
But if people are horrified by that, don't want to fight it, I'm happy to take a pretty middle of the road GK list.
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No sane person will accuse a Tau player of being WAAC.
At least we found a format in which Space Wolves aren't the best codex. Now they're just solid-ish. :)
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How does one get 2 hammer heads into their list?
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Ion Cannons, not railguns.
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yeah, i played a puppies list at this points level, and they weren't scary at all. i guess this points level really neuters them...
SEE WHAT I DID THERE?
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Well, I was able to fit one Ion cannon, one railgun. I never like running exact duplicate units anyway.
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OMG I am such a procrastinator I started painting like 2 days ago. If I keep this pace up I'll get them done in time or I will be dead :O.
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I just wanted to say good luck, were all counting on you
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It is better to die for the Emperor than to live for yourself.
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(http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcmkgxU0dM1qzuifgo1_500.jpg)
Pat, I'm hoping you fall just short and show up with half-painted models. Then you're bodily thrown out of the store for your offense, with your models unceremoniously tossed out after you.
I'm half-serious, because then everyone would be talking about that instead of your hat.
After all that busting, you have no choice but to finish and show me up.
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And I'll wear my god damn hat. The only real time consuming bit is the basecoating because the Citadel Spray gun broke :/ I have to basecoat a lot of Snot green onto the models which I am about 92% of the way done with right now should finish that up tonight. Im on a good system and the 2 liters of Mountain Dew Being IVed into my bloodstream will keep me working in the Emperor's Name.
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or you could just be thay guy who paints three different color stripes on his helmet, and leave the rest blank.
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ill paint your army in one night for 7 soda credits this offer will stand until the night before.
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My Tau are painted! ........approximately 8 years ago. My painting skills have come a bit of a way since then.
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Is anyone planning on driving to this event from near the Back Bay area? My usual rides aren't attending this time - so I'm looking for a ride to Plainville this Saturday. I'm happy to pitch in for gas and snacks for the trip over. Send me a PM if you can help out, thanks!
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Hrmm, fought a mephiston list last night. Mephiston can do damage to a Hammerhead a lot more easily than I thought.
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Hrmm, fought a mephiston list last night. Mephiston can do damage to a Hammerhead a lot more easily than I thought.
Yup. And it's pretty hard to outrun him, because he'll jump over your chump blockers. Welcome to the insanity. :D
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Hrmm, fought a mephiston list last night. Mephiston can do damage to a Hammerhead a lot more easily than I thought.
Yeah, even if Mephy needs 6s to hit, he's still auto-penning the vast marjority of Rear Armour. To say nothing of when he needs 4s or auto-hits... ;)
I really think people are underestimating how difficult Mephiston is to kill at this points level, but *shrug* oh well :)
Also, for funsies, new Necrons:
Necron Overlord w/ Warscythe - in Catacomb Command Barge (180)
Necron Overlord w/ Warscythe - in Catacomb Command Barge (180)
5xNecron Warriors (65)
5xNecron Warriors (65)
A.k.a. "please enjoy beeing Sweep Attacked by two Warscythes every round"
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I really think people are underestimating how difficult Mephiston is to kill at this points level, but *shrug* oh well :)
I've noticed this quite a bit. If you spend 200+ points on a bad-ass HQ, it's a chore for the opponent to bring him down at this level. Bad dice will help your opponent, but that's about it.
I had a difficult decision with a Lord of Change vs a Bloodthirster. Points-wise, they're pretty much identical. I decided shooing is better than assault and took the Lord of Change, but a Bloodthirster with Blessing of the Blood God can easily churn through Mephiston. Lord of Change isn't exactly a close-combat slouch, but Mephiston can tie him up if not kill him pretty darn easily.
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I had a difficult decision with a Lord of Change vs a Bloodthirster. Points-wise, they're pretty much identical. I decided shooing is better than assault and took the Lord of Change, but a Bloodthirster with Blessing of the Blood God can easily churn through Mephiston. Lord of Change isn't exactly a close-combat slouch, but Mephiston can tie him up if not kill him pretty darn easily.
I think people will be quite surprised with what the Lord of Change is capable of. Most everyone's used to Fateweaver, but the jump from T5 to T6 is pretty significant, and the 3+ Invul is a pain to deal with consistently. Honestly I think Mephiston vs. Lord of Change is actually a decently even match, as Soul Hunter can bite you in the ass with a little luck.
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Ya I have to admit it was annoying having to Fire at T6 with Bolters even the amount of shots that were hitting *cough*. It will be interesting to see how well though armies deal with the Emperor's Fury :P.
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So! Post tournament chat. What worked, and what didn't? Whatever you take that to mean, and go!
My Daemons list was a spectacular failure, highlighted by some of the worst dice I've ever thrown. What can you do then? My list was suboptimal going in and my lone victory was against a Null Zone Librarian, so go figure that one out. Part of this failure I think was that I built a list to kill Marines, but there were very few MEQ players, at least that I faced.
Round 1 - Ben Mohlie - Imperial Guard. Better player, better list. Yup.
Round 2 - Dan - Tyranids. I mishapped and killed my 300 point Lord of Change. Dan's models pooped out models until he had no more models to poop out. Yup.
Round 3 - Drew - Space Marines. Null Zone Librarian, I remain undefeated against you. Oddly.
Round 4 - Chris Griffis -Tyranids. My Lord of Change could not kill the bugs fast enough. Massive assault in the middle, too many wounds to work through.
Round 5 - Hans - Dark Eldar. I had Hans on the ropes until my Lord's luck ran out. Rolled three 1s and missed an assault into difficult terrain, then failed saves badly in the following shooting phase.
At least I was playing the right codex, but I'll just have to play it like Bill next time. Congrats to Bill again for pulling the hat trick, 3 consecutive BG Singles tournament victories.
Most people I bounced the scenarios off of said they understood them in preview, but when it came time to fill out the sheets, there were many questions. I think that comes with more eyes and perspectives looking at the same thing. I hope everyone found reasonable resolution to the slight glitches.
Termagants, you so crazy! These little bastards did funny things to the curve by making more victory points to kill.
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I think its the same way people had a pre-judgement on lists people brought. I was actually surprised to amount of times I had to explain Bike Mechanics cause of my list to some people. Relentless, Twin-Linked, T5. I liked how the bikes did I see the flaws with them at low points cost but it definitely was worth playing them to learn how to improve them for higher point games.
The Rules could have used just a little bit more wordiness cause some of the questions that came up seemed obvious reading it a little closer and others like the VP Objective per turn one had some merit just to make sure everyone was doing it the same.
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Alright. From here on out, it's a blank slate.
So here's what I had in mind. It's small, quite informal. Just something a bit different for an average night out. :)
A Thursday in December
Plainville store
Start time - 7 PM
8 Players, first come, first serve
$5 entry fee, all prizes store credit
Winner - $20
Runner up - $10
Third - $5
Fourth - $5
And of course, something special for Smokin' Boots.
Scenarios: I'll choose three of the 2011 Adepticon Combat Patrol missions (here (http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2011/2011cpsunday.pdf) and here (http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2011/2011cpsat.pdf)).
Rounds: 50 minutes.
My only question is the rule set players might like to use.
There's our simple 500 point rule, of 1 HQ, 2 Troops and anything legal goes. Then there's the General Rules set out by Adepticon in the beginning of the packet, but 500 points instead of 400. Whichever people want is fine with me.
I can probably coax Sam to hang around as a judge. Throw some Slim Jims at him.
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love it! i say the standard 1 HQ 2 troops. this did not seem to hamper people that much. I think if we dont make people take these things we are just going to see lists that are so unbalanced they aren't fun to play against.
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Granted, my vote counts little, since I can't make Thursdays. /shakefist
I agree with the standard compostion, 1 HQ and 2 Troops. Without that, it's going to be very hard to have any hope or expectation of balance in the fights.
400 points would be... hard. I mean... again I'm thinking from a Tyranid point here. HT is 170 base, if you go two genestealer groups with no upgrades... another 70 per squad, so 310 for just minimum composition. Granted you could take a Warrior Prime (I won't), but it's still a shot to most races.
I think 500 points, normal composition requirements, and Adepticon scenarios could be a fun time.
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yeah, again, i think the army composition was great so just new missions (not that your missions weren't cool)
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After glancing over the Adepticon rules I would much rather play the standard force organization. It just seems tedious to plan out an army, plus it cuts out the chance for people to do funny lists like land raiders, double tervigons, etc. Granted 500 points and forcing an HQ and 2 troops may be a slight hindrance as well.
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In terms of army composition, 500 points is a hindrance, period. But since everyone has the same hindrance, it works out.
I feel the Adepticon composition allows for crazier lists, while FOC composition allows for more predictable armies.
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Yeah, the only list i felt i really couldn't deal with was the Doom of Malantai list, and that was only due to poor rolling. I really think people liked 500 points standard force org, so that my vote!
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Alright. From here on out, it's a blank slate.
So here's what I had in mind. It's small, quite informal. Just something a bit different for an average night out. :)
A Thursday in December
Plainville store
Start time - 7 PM
8 Players, first come, first serve
$5 entry fee, all prizes store credit
Winner - $20
Runner up - $10
Third - $5
Fourth - $5
And of course, something special for Smokin' Boots.
Scenarios: I'll choose three of the 2011 Adepticon Combat Patrol missions (here (http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2011/2011cpsunday.pdf) and here (http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2011/2011cpsat.pdf)).
Rounds: 50 minutes.
My only question is the rule set players might like to use.
There's our simple 500 point rule, of 1 HQ, 2 Troops and anything legal goes. Then there's the General Rules set out by Adepticon in the beginning of the packet, but 500 points instead of 400. Whichever people want is fine with me.
I can probably coax Sam to hang around as a judge. Throw some Slim Jims at him.
count me in Ben... unless painted is a requirement because i seem to never have time to sit down and paint lol
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count me in Ben... unless painted is a requirement because i seem to never have time to sit down and paint lol
Barring a sudden gathering of easily-impressed ladies, no paint requirement this time. :)
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Yeah, the only list i felt i really couldn't deal with was the Doom of Malantai list, and that was only due to poor rolling. I really think people liked 500 points standard force org, so that my vote!
;)
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bit me >:( JK
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I would prefer the adepticon style.
500pt
1xHQ
1x troop
The armies will be a lot more fun.
If we are playin for fun? Less rules = more fun.
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yeah, but then people will start to just bring lists that are just over the top unbalanced. I think otherwise the lists are just not going to be fun because they are going to be rocks paper scissors and full of gimmicks.
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Alright. From here on out, it's a blank slate.
So here's what I had in mind. It's small, quite informal. Just something a bit different for an average night out. :)
A Thursday in December
Plainville store
Start time - 7 PM
8 Players, first come, first serve
$5 entry fee, all prizes store credit
Winner - $20
Runner up - $10
Third - $5
Fourth - $5
And of course, something special for Smokin' Boots.
Scenarios: I'll choose three of the 2011 Adepticon Combat Patrol missions (here (http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2011/2011cpsunday.pdf) and here (http://www.adepticon.org/wpfiles/2011/2011cpsat.pdf)).
Rounds: 50 minutes.
My only question is the rule set players might like to use.
There's our simple 500 point rule, of 1 HQ, 2 Troops and anything legal goes. Then there's the General Rules set out by Adepticon in the beginning of the packet, but 500 points instead of 400. Whichever people want is fine with me.
I can probably coax Sam to hang around as a judge. Throw some Slim Jims at him.
This is completely brilliant!, what a marvelous idea! Pure genius! I would happily play in this!
=Gundam John
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This is completely brilliant!, what a marvelous idea! Pure genius! I would happily play in this!=Gundam John
It's something I wanted to do since we came up with the other tournament, and word on the grapevine was some other genius had the same idea as well. Great minds, thinking alike.
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Can't sleep, so I broke down the 500 tournament results out of curiosity. Pretty much what I expected, especially with Daemons being the wild card. Sorted by average Victory Points scored, which happens to closely correlate with win %.
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/7300/500povbreakdown.png)
Really interesting to note, no power armor codex cracked the top half!
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That is very interesting. Incredible how the field changes under 1k.
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Fear my threadromancy!
I like having all this stuff in one thread, helps me stay organized. I'll be posting ideas up for the 500 Doubles for consideration here.
I have two new deployments, one of which is great for everyone, and another I think has merit but people will hate. My first order of business is to get those posted up soon-ish.
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We have time. April is one of two "off" months for 40k this year.
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We have time. April is one of two "off" months for 40k this year.
Such optimism! Sure a couple scenarios are going to simply be updated or outright recycled, but there must be dazzling, shiny new things. Plus, there are a couple topics that need to discussed and thought out. All in good time. Namely, after this Saturday.
Time wouldn't be a concern, if only I had as much as I did for the first event.
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Just because you can run 5 matches doesn't mean you need to.
Take a page out of Warmahordes, short fast dynamic events.
40K doesn't need to be a marathon, low points negates the need for an endurance game.
You can have just as much fun, if not more, playing for 5 hours as you can for 7.
Also, keep the 1 HQ, 2 Troops + Whatever you can shoe horn into 500 points. It'll cut down on unbalanced.
-Gundam John
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Examples of what could be unbalanced with the 1 HQ and 1 Troop please? No opinion either way, but just curious what the concerns are with this. My concern at 500 points with 1 HQ and 2 Troops is boring armies. Just use marines as a base line, with the cheapest selections.
Librarian 100
Scout Squad (5 man)
Scout Squad (5 man)
That's exactly half the points with no upgrades for what is required. How unbalanced can you really get with the other 250 points? Also considering games that have objectives, if some one chooses to only take 1 each they're dealing with their own issues with hold the markers anyway. Seems like it balances it self and would would allow for much more diversity in the lists.
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If you have 2 teams that each require 1HQ and 1 troop, and max out on 1 each of the other FOC slots, when you add that together, you have a 1000pt army that requires 2 HQ and 2 troops, and has a max of 2 of each other FOC. That is MUCH more restrictive than a normal singles army list would be. Unless the point is to make it so that no one can bring anything other than regular ole squads, requiring 4 troops in a 1000pt force is kind of draconian.
It also gives a huge advantage in fun to those armies that can bring really cheap troop choices, such as grey knight henchmen armies and dark eldar.
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So, I DON'T want to run a Coteaz/henchmen list.......but I will if you make me.
Honestly, 1 troop is plenty restrictive for most lists, I don't think you'll see anything all that crazy.
Once again, I brought 2 Hammerheads in under 500 pts, WITH the 2 troops. How much worse do you think it can be than that?
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It is VERY likely that we go with a 1 HQ, 1 Troop requirement.
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To repeat the selling point of the last event. Any crazy thing an opponent can do at 500 points is also something you can do. 40k is not balanced, has never been balanced, we can cast the illusion of the ideal aside.
I like 1 HQ, 1 Troop because it should help the Power Armor armies be at least viable. One need only look at the last tournament's results to see how drastically a traditional FOC @ 500 reduces Marine effectiveness. People would have to strongly convince me away from this point, because I like it so far.
I'm planning on scenarios in which Scoring Units will be necessary to win. If your team brings only the two Troops minimum, your team is likely to be at a significant disadvantage for a majority of the event.
Chase and I still have to discuss round length. I remember many people being stunned that the tournament was over so soon, despite having played 5 rounds @ 45 minutes. Even 5 rounds @ 1 hour each will be shorter than the last Singles event. 32 teams will require some more time than 32 players, but an exact number will require playtesting to narrow down. If only there were a weekly gathering of 40k players willing to run some crazy lists...
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>.> I know what Im running at 500 Points and I think making it 1 HQ 1 Troop Mandatory not going to change much for me.
I don't know about other people but I've tried talking at least 2 people interested in 40k into coming to play with a more experienced person on their team.
500 Points with Marines was difficult to fill out the FOC but I already had decided I was being silly coming into it. We had 4 Vanilla marine players and I played 1 of them tabling him and skewing the results.
Marines (of any type.) will get a big boost from the change to the FOC. I think other races will get a boost as well especially Tau.
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I could play a trial game next week. Not this week.
I think 45 pts was just a little too short last time. It was enough, but I still felt under enormous time pressure to finish each round, and it occurs to me that we just didn't have to. 1 hour would have been more than enough time, and led to relaxed, enjoyable games, while still being able to fit 5 in a day.
For doubles 500/1000 pts? I dunno, it's a little harder. I really liked having the 5 games, it enough to do it win/loss, and that was great. Maybe we could try 1 hour 15min? Does that work? My gut is that would be tight again but doable.
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I figure 45 minutes for a lunch break. I figure to allow for 15 minutes between rounds as well as for the post-award ceremony. That's all about 2 unavoidable "downtime" hours.
That in mind, the pure playing time.
60 minutes a round @ 5 rounds gives us a total of 300 minutes... 5 hours.
65 minutes @ 5 rounds is 325 minutes... 5 hours, 25 minutes.
70 minutes @ 5 rounds is 350 minutes... 5 hours, 50 minutes.
75 minutes @ 5 rounds is 375 minutes... 6 hours, 15 minutes.
I feel fine with rounds cutting it close because all of the scenarios will be released beforehand, well in advance of the event. But doubles matches are inherently more complex and the 5 round format really pushes the time issue. I'm really hoping playtesting solves this problem for us.
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I have faith in playtesting.
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Hans and I will be around Plainville tomorrow dabbling w lists if anyone wants to play test.
Ben, can you shoot me some missions you want to test?
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I'll do that, if I don't show up there myself.
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We'll be there. We could use 1k to square off against if you come down. We will be doing reg ole games of not so come down anyway
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So... Bill and I got a playtest game in. The scenario and deployment for the new mission is nearly perfect. Also, 1 HQ and 1 Troop choice really helped out my Space Marines.
But our adventure was missing the same element as any good comedy.
"What element were you.." TIMING! ".. missing?"
Our game took two hours to play. Now, we puttered around the table and allowed ample time for fauxchismo. But we figured we could only shave 30 minutes off our time at best.
Now, this makes sense. Twice as many models on the table should take twice as long to play. 1 army @ 500 points, 45 minutes. Two armies @ 500 points, 90 minutes. But this makes 5 rounds very impractical.
More playtesting required, but for this to work, I believe it's very likely we'll need to limit matches to 5 rounds. No random game length. That should help, some.
If playtesting continues to go this long, something will need to be compromised and I can't figure out what. The last event went so well because all parts worked in harmony. 5 rounds, W-L format, brackets for more prizes, it all dovetailed nicely together.
I do strongly encourage other people to try out games, and see how long it takes. The more information the better.
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I tend to disagree with notion that game length scales linearly, but maybe it's close enough the difference is immaterial. With lots of testing, I suppose we could write an algorithm.
IT would be really, really nice if we could find a way to fit in 5 games, as that would be enough to have a win/loss tournament, like before. I thought that was brilliant.
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IT would be really, really nice if we could find a way to fit in 5 games, as that would be enough to have a win/loss tournament, like before. I thought that was brilliant.
We're gonna do everything we can to make sure we get 5 rounds in.
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Pep talk I gave my partner.
With your good luck and my God Given ability of not totally sucking. We may do Decent.
Partner: You suck at pep talks.
I keep looking over my list and changing ideas around. Only so much you can spend 50 points on in Space Marines.
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Only so much you can spend 50 points on in Space Marines.
There is only one way SM know how to spend 50 pts.
RAZORBACKS FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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IF you gave all your troops Razorbacks not much else :P.
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Only so much you can spend 50 points on in Space Marines.
There is only one way SM know how to spend 50 pts.
RAZORBACKS FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Technically 40, but who's counting? ;)
#queuejokesaboutAsiansbeinggoodatmath
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Only so much you can spend 50 points on in Space Marines.
There is only one way SM know how to spend 50 pts.
RAZORBACKS FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Technically 40, but who's counting? ;)
#queuejokesaboutAsiansbeinggoodatmath
That's racist :)
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Only so much you can spend 50 points on in Space Marines.
There is only one way SM know how to spend 50 pts.
RAZORBACKS FOR EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Technically 40, but who's counting? ;)
#queuejokesaboutAsiansbeinggoodatmath
That's racist :)
My razorbacks are 50. Don't stereotype, stop the hate.
Besides......they all look alike. (the razorbacks)
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Oh, I've heard that before Necro-bot!
After watching a 500 point game at Thursday 40k, and watching the one of the coolest endings to a game I can recall, I'm all fired up for another 500 point tournament.
It would be January at the soonest, and depending on demand, which gives me a couple months to ignore the much bigger 40k events along the way. :P
I'm strongly considering 500 points, and a modified FOC of requiring only 1 Troop choice (no mandatory HQ). I'd like to think this might help some of the power armor armies a bit, but it's all speculation.
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I would be all over that... 500 pts, 5 rounds?
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Yup! 500 points, 5 rounds. Same structure as the first 500 point event, with W-L and brackets.
Still a shame I can't figure out how to run a Doubles 500 point event in a reasonable fashion.
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Time to make tournament sausage. How does this look to people? It's basically a copy-and-paste from last year, with a few differences.
Armies will be required to take only 2 Troops. No mandatory HQ! Allied Detachments will be required to take an HQ choice. (I think it's possible to actually take allies at 500 points.) 2 Troops minimum helps keep mission design reasonable.
Sixth Edition rules with Fifth Edition Victory Points.
No Fortress of Redemption.
Only one mission will use Mysterious Objectives.
PLEASE NOTE: This is not an official declaration. It is a draft.
Format: Singles (1v1) 500 points per person
Entrance Fee: $15.00 per person
** This event will NOT count toward Battleground Invitational Standings. **
Contact:
This event will be capped at 32 players.
Registration will begin XX day at YY o'clock. Our events fill up fast so if you know you're going to play don't hesitate to sign up.
RULES FOR WARHAMMER 40K TOURNAMENT
Rule Books:
The Warhammer 40,000 Sixth Edition Rules will be used.
The following is a list of legal army choices:
Codex: Black Templars
Codex: Blood Angels
Codex: Chaos Daemons (including White Dwarf updates)
Codex: Chaos Space Marines
Codex: Dark Angels
Codex: Dark Eldar
Codex: Eldar
Codex: Grey Knights
Codex: Imperial Guard
Codex: Necrons
Codex: Orks
Codex: Space Marines
Codex: Space Wolves
Codex: Tau Empire
Codex: Tyranids
Codex: Sisters of Battle (White Dwarf)
MODELS AND POINTS:
1. Each player must bring an army consisting of no more than 500 points in accordance with these rules...
2. Each list must include 2 Troops choices at a minimum. A player may choose to bring an HQ choice, but a player is not required to bring an HQ choice. In every other way, follow the Force Organization Chart. This includes any Allied Detachments being required to take an HQ choice.
3. The Fortress of Redemption will NOT be allowed. All other Fortifications will be permitted.
4. All models must follow “What You See Is What You Get” (WYSIWYG) and be painted to a minimum three-color standard. All weapons, war gear, and so forth must be represented on the model.
5. Forge World Imperial Armor units (and army lists) may NOT be used. Forge world models may be used where appropriate, however.
6. We require each player submits an itemized army list to a Battleground Tournament Organizer on or before XX XX, 2012 (roughly a week before the event). An Army Builder .pdf is preferred but a detailed text file (.txt) is acceptable.
Please email lists to ChaseLaq@gmail.com as soon as they are finalized.
7. If illegal units or other rules violations are found in a player’s army list, at a minimum, the models in violation will be removed from all subsequent play. In addition, tournament results may be deducted and/or award eligibility may be forfeited. If in doubt, please ask for clarification in advance from a Battleground Tournament Organizer.
HOW THE TOURNAMENT WORKS:
Competitors will participate in five (5) games over the course of the event. In each game, you will play a scenario and record the outcome of the battle on your mission sheet. Each game is of random length per the Warhammer rulebook (5-7 turns).
Each game is designed to produce a win/loss result. If one player's entire army is wiped out, the game ends immediately and his opponent automatically wins. Likewise, if at the end of any game turn, one player has no models on the battlefield, his opponent automatically wins.
Victory Points will serve as the tie-breaker, in respect to draw results and determining overall ranking.
Victory Points in this tournament will differ from the Sixth Edition rulebook. In this tournament, Victory Points are defined as they were in 5th Edition, as follows:
Units Destroyed
At the end of the game, every unit that has been destroyed is worth an amount of Victory Points equal to its points cost (including the cost of all its extra wargear, vehicle upgrades, etc). Units that end the game falling back or off the battlefield count as destroyed.
Units at Half Strength
At the end of the game, every enemy surviving unit that has lost half of its initial models or more is worth an amount of Victory Points equal to half its points cost (including the cost of all its extra wargear, vehicle upgrades, etc), rounded down. In the case of units that start the game as a single model (independent characters, monstrous creatures, etc), they are worth half their points in composition points if they have lost half or more of the Wounds on their profile. In the case of vehicles, they are worth half their points cost in Victory Points if they are suffering from the effects of any Damaged result at the end of the game; or if they have lost half or more of the Hull Points on their profile.
Rounds 1 and 2 will determine for which bracket a player is eligible.
After Round 2, the overall field will be divided into 4 brackets based on performance.
Bracket 1 - eight 2-0 players
Bracket 2 - eight 1-1 players (top half)
Bracket 3 - eight 1-1 players (bottom half)
Bracket 4 - eight 0-2 players
Once brackets are determined, points will be reset to zero and players will compete only against other players from within their bracket.
In the first round, opponents will be determined randomly. We will try our best not to pair players that come to the event together in the first round. For the second round, players will be matched up according to current rankings in the tournament (based record and then the number of victory points scored). The player in first place will play the player in second place and so on. From the third round on, matches are determined by the bracket system. If for some reason there are less than 32 players, the 4th bracket will always be the smallest.
The event is designed for every player to play every round. If a player receives a BYE, they will be awarded a win with average victory points for the round.
You will not play the same person twice during the first two rounds. Though unlikely, you may face one or both of these opponents again if you are placed in the same bracket!
We will do our best to prevent a player from playing on the same table twice.
The pairings for each round will be announced as soon as they are determined. Please be sure to arrive at your table ready to play right away.
Slow playing will NOT be tolerated. Players are expected to complete at least 4 rounds. If you suspect your opponent is slow playing PLEASE notify a Battleground staff member as soon as possible as we can not do anything about alleged slow play after the fact.
Each game will be played on a 4' x 4' board.
Players will receive Results Sheets at the beginning of each round. Each results sheet must be filled in properly to ensure that match-ups and point totals are correct. Once Results Sheets are completed they are to be turned in at the counter so the scores can be entered into the computer.
BATTLES:
The Sixth Edition Rulebook will be in use for all games and will be the definitive guide for all rules. We will be using the Games Workshop FAQs & Errata for this event.
The time limit for each game is 45 minutes. At the end of this time limit, the round will be called. Players are expected to finish their game immediately, and no additional time will be provided.
What You Need to Bring with You:
- Your painted miniatures
- At least TWO copies of your army list
- Rulebooks are required as are any additional books you need
- Pen and paper
- Dice and templates
- Tape measure
- Something to transport your army from table to table
- Because of the tournament's use of Victory Points, please calculate values for 1/2 squads and damaged vehicles in advance.
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Missions I'm considering, not in any particular order. (I'll be making pictures for Deployments, too.)
Deployment: Vanguard Strike (modified) / Diagonal. 34" in each direction from the corner of deployment.
Mission: 3 Objectives, 2 Armies, 1 Winner, 0 Tolerance.
One in the table center. One placed along the deployment line by each player, at least 6" from table edge.
Deployment: Hammer and Anvil
Mission: 5 objectives (4 in table quarters, 1 in center), mysterious objectives. (Chart will be provided as part of mission packet)
Deployment: Dawn of War
Mission: Kill Troops!
Game decided by Victory Points. For this mission, Troops choices are worth double VPs.
Deployment: Spearhead (modified), 9" circle of 'non-deployment' in middle of table
Mission: No Quarter, No Retreat
Units in killed in your deployment zone count as double Victory Points for this mission. At the end of the game, your opponent counts your half-strength units remaining in your deployment zone as full VPs scored. A unit is in a deployment zone only if the majority of the unit's models are in the zone. If a unit's position is unable to be determined, it is settled by a roll-off.
Deployment: Dawn of War
Mission: Church & Trench
This mission will function as The Relic (p 131), with the following exceptions. This mission will have two Relics equidistantly placed along the center line. Each Relic will be able to be moved at most 3". A unit can control only one Relic at a time.
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Super pumped.
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I'm tweaking the definition of Victory Points as it relates to vehicles. Hull Points weren't in 5th. It's harder to get a damage result to actually stick to a vehicle, and if you do manage it, most likely the vehicle is destroyed. So I think this is a change that makes sense to bridge the editions.
In the case of vehicles, they are worth half their points cost in Victory Points if they are suffering from the effects of any Damaged result at the end of the game; or if they have lost half or more of the Hull Points on their profile.
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I do have a concern about whether to allow Flyers at 500 points.
If more books had more access to ways to deal with Flyers, I'd feel better. But it seems early in the edition and not everything is quite up to par in this regard.
I want to hear people's thoughts. My brain says no, my gut says allow them. And I tend to go with my gut.
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Yeah... with only 500 points, it is hard for a lot of armies to include a contingency plan for fighting flyers. If someone brings a tooled up grey knight stormraven to this tournament, it seems like a lot of armies would just have no way to deal with it at all. Or what about a Lord of Change? I mean, I guess that could be just another "metagame consideration" but it does seem like from a practical perspective it could lead to a lot of uninteresting games where one army consists mainly of some giant flying thing that the other guy can't shoot down.
It does suck to tell people (myself included) that they can't play with their toys though. If you do ban anything I recommend that it be from a conclusion drawn from playtesting, rather than speculation.
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I'd say no to flyers,
the aforementioned fully loaded stormraven (which would be hard to afford at 500 pts)
the feared chaos dragon with bale flamer
valkarie with pieplates
Orc dakka jet
etc
might be hard on 500 point armies since many of them will be without vehicles, just my 2 cents.
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If you start banning types of units, I think you are going to be going down a slippery slope.
Case in point, if you are banning flyers, I think you should ban anything av13+ because that is an almost autowin against Orks who have almost no way of handling it at 500pts (heck it is tough enough at 1850).
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Isn't all of these arguments just a point to build a list that works with the format? Arguments can be made and specific lists built that work great in both table sizes so I suggest just setting a table size and people will have to deal with. The game is built around skill and just dealing with situations.
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If you start banning types of units, I think you are going to be going down a slippery slope.
Case in point, if you are banning flyers, I think you should ban anything av13+ because that is an almost autowin against Orks who have almost no way of handling it at 500pts (heck it is tough enough at 1850).
In this case, it's wouldn't be a slippery slope. Eventually, more codices should have ways to directly address Flyers. AV13 has been around long enough for every book to have some answer for it. Whether you take the answer or not is up to you.
My gut says yes to Flyers, because that means someone is spending a full quarter of their points on a single model.
I do think I decided against Fortifications for no good reason. Every army can take a Fortification, and some of those deal with Flyers. So that's probably the answer I need. Allow Fortifications (except Fortress of Redemption) and allow Flyers. Inclusion is always the better choice.
Playtesting would be nice. Lists would be more reasonable.
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Isn't all of these arguments just a point to build a list that works with the format? Arguments can be made and specific lists built that work great in both table sizes so I suggest just setting a table size and people will have to deal with. The game is built around skill and just dealing with situations.
Yeah, I didn't even think of Flyers moving and trying to stay on a 4x4 table.
I'm still going to fix this and allow Fortifications. I'm flip-flopping, just in time for election season.
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Warlord Traits. Here's what I'm considering.
Did you bring an HQ? Great! You get Warlord Traits.
Did you not bring an HQ? Well, then you don't have an eligible model for Warlord Traits, so you don't get Warlord Traits.
Straight forward, right?
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Is anyone really going to bring an aegis line with a quad gun and then only 400 pts of guys? I agree there's no reason to ban fortifications, so simpler is better, let them be played.
Yeah I like the warlord trait policy you suggested.
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Is anyone really going to bring an aegis line with a quad gun and then only 400 pts of guys?
It's possible you'll see lists like that, but I too doubt anyone will play with it. The lists were crazy last year, but when it came to crunch time everyone went conservative... well, almost everyone. Looking at you, Benjamin.
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I brought 11 Bikes :D Last time. As for the HQ thing oh look you took an HQ you get a Warlord Trait which most are useless :(. An Aegis is so good in this at least having the Fortification. 2 20 Shoota Boyz a 9 man Lootaz all Behind an Aegis with something else >.>.
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I think you should ban anything av13+ because that is an almost autowin against Orks who have almost no way of handling it at 500pts (heck it is tough enough at 1850).
Um, Orks can take allies that can easily fill that gap. That was one of the main reasons for its addition to 6th ed
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If a player rolls Legendary Fighter as a Warlord Trait for their HQ (p 111), the rule will remain identical for the tournament. Hilarious!
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I think you should ban anything av13+ because that is an almost autowin against Orks who have almost no way of handling it at 500pts (heck it is tough enough at 1850).
Um, Orks can take allies that can easily fill that gap. That was one of the main reasons for its addition to 6th ed
Ummm, since to take allies we have to take an allied HQ and a unit of troops to fill that gap at 500pts, it is basically playing the ally and not the Orks.
And by that reasoning, everyone can take someone that can deal with flyers, so it shouldn't be a problem (just about everyone can ally with the best anti-air unit in the game. Da Lootaz)
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Is anyone really going to bring an aegis line with a quad gun and then only 400 pts of guys? I agree there's no reason to ban fortifications, so simpler is better, let them be played.
Yeah I like the warlord trait policy you suggested.
I would definitely run a AGL with my shootas and lootas. 4+/2+ cover save is awesome when you have no armor and a ton of shots.
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I would suggest not over thinking things like what can or can't be used at 500. These things have a way of working themselves out with the limitations of the points. If someone wants to spend 1/2 their points on a land raider let them. Limiting what someone can take based on another codex's ability to counter at this level would be far too time consuming. Frankly if someone can come up with something that unstoppable (not saying the land raider is) that has no counter, good for them for bringing a good list...isn't that the same possibility at any point level?
I'd really like the time an energy put into building scenarios and getting them play tested with various armies prior to the event. I have no idea how much play testing usually goes on with the scenarios, but that is really the best way to see what will work and what won't. If you go this way I would also suggest posting what is being tested so there are no feelings that those testing have some kind of advantage.
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Last time I used two hammerheads. That was both overkill, and pretty awesome -- I don't think anyone had a problem with it. Part of the point was to see what nasty crap you could put in 500 pts, right?
Allow flyers......we'll see what happens. But then yes, you have to allow fortifications....and yes I might very well take a bastion. Find a way to deal with it!
I just do't think you can take this stuff too seriously, it's half for yucks.
Oh, btw, Demons will totally kill you all.
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Ummm, since to take allies we have to take an allied HQ and a unit of troops to fill that gap at 500pts, it is basically playing the ally and not the Orks.
yea but you also mentioned they had little anti-air at 1850 too
And by that reasoning, everyone can take someone that can deal with flyers, so it shouldn't be a problem (just about everyone can ally with the best anti-air unit in the game. Da Lootaz)
Exactly my point.
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yea but you also mentioned they had little anti-air at 1850 too
I think you meant to say anti-tank. Orks have TONS of anti-air. And yeah, Orks have a tougher time of anti-tank at 1850, no melta but we can make it work....especially when your weirdboyz can puke on tanks. The point was more directed at 500pt games.
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Limiting what someone can take based on another codex's ability to counter at this level would be far too time consuming.
Not really. Ban Flyers. Done. Comp is easy! :)
But I won't be doing that. Flyers will be fine if we include Fortifications. And we will. So, yeah.
Frankly if someone can come up with something that unstoppable (not saying the land raider is) that has no counter, good for them for bringing a good list...isn't that the same possibility at any point level?
I think it is far less likely at higher point values. In a 1750 list, for example, you can bring many more tools. Some players are near-unstoppable, but that's a different story.
I'd really like the time an energy put into building scenarios and getting them play tested with various armies prior to the event. I have no idea how much play testing usually goes on with the scenarios, but that is really the best way to see what will work and what won't. If you go this way I would also suggest posting what is being tested so there are no feelings that those testing have some kind of advantage.
I have a strong feeling these scenarios will be fine. That said, I love playtesting and I love when other people playtest. It's all too rare that players pitch in. But if they do help, they do get a leg-up in experience.
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Landraider has some of the easiest counters in the world: Melta/Meltabomb/hammer/fist. And all those are short ranged and we're talking about a smaller than normal board. I'm a huge LR fan, but I certainly can't see taking one in 500 pts.
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Not to mention, any monstrous creature or anything from Codex:Necrons.
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I do not recall seeing a single Land Raider last year. Like I said, most sane, perfectly rational people took balanced lists that did not dump 200-300 points into just one unit.
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I might take a Dreadknight, jsut warning you. Or, I might not. I might take 60 acolytes, and have some pts left over.
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Is there actually another 500 point event in the works?
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There definitely will be another 500 Point Tournament. When exactly? Not sure. Maybe December, maybe later or much later.
Despite 6th Edition strangeness, I actually feel much more confident in our second attempt. The first attempt went excellently, and what I learned from that should make the second one near perfect.
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I'd like to see one early December. Feels like there's currently a bit of a "hole" in the competive schedule there.
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I'd like to see one early December. Feels like there's currently a bit of a "hole" in the competive schedule there.
There's a couple reasons why Plainville won't be running a 40k event in December. That said, word on the street is that there will be two events in January. 8)
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Looks like mid-January is our likely target date for a 500 point tournament, so time to work.
I've decided to arrange the missions this way. The first two rounds should be the more fun and wonkier missions. The competition really starts in the third round.
Round 1
Deployment: Hammer and Anvil
Mission: The 6th Has Hit the Fan
5 objectives (4 in table quarters, 1 in center), mysterious objectives. (Chart will be provided as part of mission packet)
Round 2
Deployment: Spearhead (modified), 9" circle of 'non-deployment' in middle of table
Mission: No Quarter, No Retreat
Game decided by Victory Points. Your units with the last model killed in your deployment zone count as double Victory Points for this mission. At the end of the game, your opponent counts your half-strength units remaining in your deployment zone as full VPs scored. A unit is in a deployment zone only if the majority of the unit's models are in the zone. If a unit's position is unable to be determined, it is settled by a roll-off.
Round 3
Deployment: Dawn of War
Mission: Church & Trench
This mission will function as The Relic (p 131), with the following exceptions. This mission will have two Relics equidistantly placed along the center line. Each Relic will be able to be moved at most 3". A unit can control only one Relic at a time.
Round 4
Deployment: Vanguard Strike (modified) / Diagonal. 34" in each direction from the corner of deployment.
Mission: Kill Troops!
Game decided by Victory Points. For this mission, Troops choices are worth double VPs. Troops choices at half-strength will be worth full VPs.
Round 5
Deployment: Dawn of War
Mission: 3 Objectives, 2 Armies, 1 Winner, 0 Tolerance.
One in the table center. One placed along the deployment line by each player, at least 6" from table edge. The winner controls more objectives than their opponent at the end of the game.
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I like them, except it looks like you're setting up #3 to be a new version of Roll dice and Tie.
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I like them, except it looks like you're setting up #3 to be a new version of Roll dice and Tie.
Victory Points always split a draw.
I could do 3 Relics. I don't know, objective missions on paper to me always look like they'll draw.
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I would like to make a recommendation about the date. If the event could be held after Christmas and before New Years eve, we could get more players. That is a time period of all school vacations both college and high school. I am a teacher who has 12 students who all play down at Bg in Abington and some would be able to make it during this time to either store. Honestly, I cannot wait to for this event. I love the idea of a 500 point game.
Brandon
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I would like to make a recommendation about the date. If the event could be held after Christmas and before New Years eve, we could get more players.
The event is capped at 32 players. We should get that many people as is.
We had an extensive too-long discussion over whether the Invitational should be held around this time, and the same points apply as well.
Let the BG employees have something like a holiday. ;)
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I like them, except it looks like you're setting up #3 to be a new version of Roll dice and Tie.
Victory Points always split a draw.
I could do 3 Relics. I don't know, objective missions on paper to me always look like they'll draw.
Honestly, what is wrong with 1? 3 is ok....but then i think it loses a lot of it's distinctiveness. Either way, I think it's important to do have an odd number.
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Maybe at 500 points 1 Relic becomes less of a giant melee blob. But in most games I've seen, it's wave after wave crashing into each other, countering the counter-assaults. Don't get me wrong, I like assaults, but it always seemed that they'd never resolve and the game would end in a draw anyway.
With more than 1 relic, players need to make decisions. 2 seemed reasonable given the board size, and I really wanted something that wasn't 3 or 5 objectives. Also, 3 relics I thought would spread 500 points too thin. If the game were 1000 or more, it'd be 3 relics no question.
All that said, there's plenty of time to play-test this scenario. I'll put it to the forefront.
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Pro tip: Be able to kill a Tervigon
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What? Who would bring one of those!?!??!!!!
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Dan Bunker would. He whooped my ass badly in the last tournament, and I've never forgiven him for my terrible list and bad luck.
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When the Escalation League started a brand new player was SMOKING people at 500 and 750 with a Tervigon. People couldn't handle it, let alone the ~11 dudes it craps out every round.
Beast mode! Literally.
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Damn... I guess my "secret" idea for the 500-pointer isn't so secret after all.... Maybe I need to think of a secret-er idea.
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500 points of Grots!!!! Nobody expects the Grot Inquisition....
125 models on the table...
except, I am not painting up that many grots....
Maybe I should buy some more. Actually Grot Inquisition themed models would be pretty cool.
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Grotquisition would be awesome.
The grot list mercilessly destroyed the initial idea last year of giving away a 500 point army. Sam's list somehow fit 144 wounds in there. That's alot of painting!
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Air force list anyone? Take the 2 lowest point troops you can, and them spam them with bombers, and whatnot. If I could use the eldar flyers (and if I could afford them) that's what I would do.
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Air force list anyone? Take the 2 lowest point troops you can, and them spam them with bombers, and whatnot. If I could use the eldar flyers (and if I could afford them) that's what I would do.
But you couldn't score any objectives once the opponent wastes your troops. ;)
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Air force list anyone? Take the 2 lowest point troops you can, and them spam them with bombers, and whatnot. If I could use the eldar flyers (and if I could afford them) that's what I would do.
But you couldn't score any objectives once the opponent wastes your troops. ;)
True, but as long as you can lay waste to all the troops before then, your all good!
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Three weeks later, and I'm tinkering with the Round order again. Much happier with this.
Round 1
Deployment: Hammer and Anvil
Mission: The 6th Hits the Fan
5 objectives (4 in center of table quarters, 1 in center of table), mysterious objectives.
Round 2
Deployment: Dawn of War
Mission: Church & Trench
This mission will function as The Relic (p 131), with the following exceptions. This mission will have two Relics equidistantly placed along the center line. Relics cannot be moved until Game Turn 2. Each Relic will be able to be moved at most 3" (instead of 6"). A unit can control only one Relic at a time.
-- BRACKETS --
Round 3
Deployment: Spearhead (modified), 9" circle of 'non-deployment' in middle of table
Mission: No Quarter, No Retreat
Game decided by Victory Points. For this mission only, your units with the last model killed in your deployment zone count as double Victory Points for your opponent. At the end of the game, your opponent counts your half-strength units remaining in your deployment zone as full VPs scored. A unit is in a deployment zone only if the majority of the unit's models are in the zone. If a model or unit's position is unable to be determined, it is settled by a roll-off.
Round 4
Deployment: Vanguard Strike (modified) / Diagonal. 34" in each direction from the corner of deployment.
Mission: Kill Troops!
Game decided by Victory Points. For this mission, Troops choices are worth double VPs. Troops choices at half-strength will be worth full VPs.
Round 5
Deployment: Dawn of War
Mission: 3 Objectives, 2 Armies, 1 Winner, 0 Tolerance.
Place one objective in the table center. After deployment is decided but before any models are placed, the player going first places an objective along his deployment line by each player, at least 6" from table edge. The second player then does the same on his deployment line. The winner controls more objectives than their opponent at the end of the game.
I have irons in the fire regarding the diagrams for these missions, so hopefully we'll have a professional looking packet for everyone. For now, we'll have this mess.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9uaJDE7Iqy1cEFFZ0IybU9pVnM (https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9uaJDE7Iqy1cEFFZ0IybU9pVnM)
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The napkin diagrams are way cooler than fancy stuff, in my opinion.
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There's much less discussion on lists and list theory this time around.
What can Chaos Space Marines look like at 500 points?
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Typhus and 60 zombies. Done
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A lot or very little they can fjt like 40 cultists and still have points left over I think. 4 choices 10 man cultists at 50 points each leaving you with 300 points left which you coould toss something super serious in with.
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Missions Feedback:
Mission 3, No, just no. In addition to penalizing entire codices, exactly no one will score this correct
Seriously, way too complex and will lead to issues.
Mission 4, I just don't like it, but that's not constructive feedback.
But seriously, Mission 3 is too hard to keep track of.
Round 3
Deployment: Spearhead (modified), 9" circle of 'non-deployment' in middle of table
Mission: No Quarter, No Retreat
Game decided by Victory Points. For this mission only, your units with the last model killed in your deployment zone count as double Victory Points for your opponent. At the end of the game, your opponent counts your half-strength units remaining in your deployment zone as full VPs scored. A unit is in a deployment zone only if the majority of the unit's models are in the zone. If a model or unit's position is unable to be determined, it is settled by a roll-off.
Round 4
Deployment: Vanguard Strike (modified) / Diagonal. 34" in each direction from the corner of deployment.
Mission: Kill Troops!
Game decided by Victory Points. For this mission, Troops choices are worth double VPs. Troops choices at half-strength will be worth full VPs.
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What if a piece of paper was provided with a header "Units I killed in my opponent's deployment zone"? And then players wrote them down? I thought last year's mission involving scoring objectives by each round was going to be a problem, and it actually went very smoothly.
Of more concern is the issue of imbalance. Which codices get penalized for having their models killed? All of them?
Edit: I just realized that this issue of imbalance probably refers to a certain tactic rather than a platitude of codices. And if that's the case, I know about this and am fine with it. What can I say? I'm on a kick of forcing mobility out of players, of creating dynamic missions. Shooting is doing well enough in 6th Edition, I will weep not.
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So who's the dick bringing necron fliers? Is it Rickels?
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Since I am going to loose anyways, i thought I would post my list to see what people think of it. It's pretty simple:
2 units of 3 Eldar Jetbikes in each unit= 132 points
3 units of 2 War Walkers in each unit, each war walker has 2 scatterlazers. = 360 points
Total= 492 points
The basic theory is sending 48 strength 6 shots of scatterlazers each turn, and having the bikes in reverve so at the last turn they can just go 36+ 2D6 inches to take the objective. Will it work, most likely not. Is it worth a try, yes.
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New 500 Point List:
71 Kroot.
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HQ:BigMek, KFF, Power Klaw
T:Gretchin(x30)+1 runtherder
T:Gretchin(x30)
T:Gretchin(x30)
T:Gretchin(x30)
H:Kannon
123 models
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HQ:BigMek, KFF, Power Klaw
T:Gretchin(x30)+1 runtherder
T:Gretchin(x30)
T:Gretchin(x30)
T:Gretchin(x30)
H:Kannon
123 models
you need 12 runtherds to run that many grots. you need one every time you hit 10 grots. A mob of 29 would need 2, while a mob of 30 needs 3.
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A crazy idea; 500 pt "megabattle" type game. Think how awesome and quick the game would be....
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haha, that would be totally awesome. I would be up for that.
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We did that one Thursday 40k, and would love to do it again.
Rules:
http://www.battlegroundgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=2135.msg30012#msg30012
Results:
http://www.battlegroundgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=2135.msg30046#msg30046
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The list I just submitted, working with what I have. It's... it's gonna suck, but it's going to look nice doing it. So I'll call it the Paris Hilton list.
Tactical Squad x10, Flamer, Missile Launcher, Sarge w/ melta bombs (175)
Scout Squad x5, Sniper rifle x5 (75)
Thunderfire Cannon (100)
Dreadnought, MM, Heavy Flamer, Drop Pod (150)
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I like that, looks balanced. Not much you can do versus fliers, though.
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I like that, looks balanced. Not much you can do versus fliers, though.
True of the whole codex. I'll just ignore Flyers as they kill my whole army.
Wait, that's a terrible plan.
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I'm going to be putting 54% of my eggs in one basket. One big basket. Big newly painted basket. I just finished it, so I gotta run it, even though it doesn't leave much room for the other eggs....
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Helldrake(s) I'm assuming.
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I'm going to be putting 54% of my eggs in one basket. One big basket. Big newly painted basket. I just finished it, so I gotta run it, even though it doesn't leave much room for the other eggs....
Hmm... Bloodthirster? Because I'd do that.
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There are some lists I was not expecting to see rolling in. Interesting. :)
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Don't mind me. Just posting links to help keep a history.
http://www.battlegroundgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=5242.0
http://www.battlegroundgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=5083.0
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There is a specter looming over Battleground Abington and it is 500 points! Chase posted here (http://www.battlegroundgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=5504.0) that he wants a 500 point in Abington on May 4th.
This event is something that should be thought about, starting now. So while I go back through and re-read comments and criticisms from the last event, I'd love to hear people's ideas moving forward.
What will definitely stay:
No HQ, 2 Troops minimum. Some codices have only too-expensive HQ choices for the format. The troops are necessary, because somewhat balanced missions are very difficult to design otherwise.
4' x 4' table.
5 rounds with the bracket format (2 qualifying rounds, followed by 3 rounds in your bracket to determine prizes).
Missions that score double (old) Victory Points will be kept to an absolute bare minimum. They'll try to be avoided altogether, depending on level of awesome epiphanies.
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Is the FW units being allowed still looking good? I'm really looking forward to the painting requirement though. Going to be a fun tourny!
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Why not open it up to 6 rounds if you get more than 32 people who want to go? This would still be much shorter than a normal 3 round 2000 pt tourney.
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I could do 6 rounds.
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It's a big if whether 32 players could show up. Last time, there were 23-24 players, something like that. Just enough for 3 brackets.
Really, it comes down to this. After 5 rounds and 32 players, there will be a single person, the winner of the top bracket, who has gone 5-0 on the day. A sixth round, while possible to break the winners using Victory Points, lacks that poetry.
But, if we had 64 players! Well, then we wouldn't have room. Using only 16 tables is somewhat nice too, as it doesn't take up the *entire* store.
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well, I'm thinking more if you had like 40 players. Then 6 rounds would be needed to get exactly one 6-0 person. This is more an argument for not capping the event at 32 participants than anything else. I predict that this time even more people will sign up. Another bonus of the 500pt format: 4x4 boards take up only 2/3 as much space as normal games!
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well, I'm thinking more if you had like 40 players. Then 6 rounds would be needed to get exactly one 6-0 person. This is more an argument for not capping the event at 32 participants than anything else. I predict that this time even more people will sign up. Another bonus of the 500pt format: 4x4 boards take up only 2/3 as much space as normal games!
Mmm, not quite, if all those 4x4 tables are built on the standard 4x6 tables.
More than 32 players do not necessitate more rounds; they necessitate more brackets. That is, until we hit 64 players. 40 players could I suppose break down into 5 brackets, 48 into 6 and so on until 64 players, at which point we'd go back to 4 brackets of 16 players. I think. I haven't given it much thought, because 32 has been a good number. But I like the enthusiasm of bringing in lots of players!
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Well, one of the cool things about the format is that, unlike with most tournaments, you can play enough games that it's possible to guarantee that there will be exactly one undefeated player at the end. If there are > 32 players you can't keep this possibility by adding brackets to a 5 round tournament, since with > 32 there could be more than 8 undefeated players after 2 rounds. For 17-32 players, you mathematically need 5 rounds to do that (since 2^5 = 32). For 33-64 you need 6 rounds (since 2^6 = 64).
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However, with 6 rounds and less than 64 players, the possibility also exists that no one will finish the day undefeated.
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Right...
In my head, I was imagining that you just see how many people show up, and then decide how many rounds to play based on that. But... that isn't how it usually works, is it? You put the # of rounds up on the post that lets people know about the tournament, etc...
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That is correct. Usually, more than 32 players say they are interested, and the extras get put on a wait list.
With a number of players between 32 and 64-ish, the answer would have to be either bigger brackets or more brackets. And that opens up the possibility then that more than one player goes undefeated, or no player goes undefeated. The spirit of the event gets a bit murkier in that awkward math.
Passing thought: Hmm... 500 point GT?
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Also to take into consideration... if there is a painting requirement, your adverage number of people playing may rise/ drop. Personally, if we can find 50+ people with 4000 points worth of painted armies, I assume there would be no problem with finding around 40 people. Also, there may also be more/ less people because the event is being held in Abington. All things to consider when planning for the number of people.
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The plan is for 32 players.
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It did dawn on me (very, very slowly) that more players would be a good thing... If the math can be worked out. In my spare time??
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I would totaly come. If forge world special charecters allowed even better
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Well... this seems fun, when do we play? ;D
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From this thread:
http://www.battlegroundgames.com/forum/index.php?topic=5504.0
5/4 - 500pt event in Abington. FW "40k approved" models and/or lists will be legal. No HQ required. Painted models will likely be required.
We'll probably have to move that date, as I think that's Dragon's Maze Launch weekend.
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It is, but I don't care.
500pt events move fast, and Release Saturday tends to have an event at 7pm in Abington (likely draft). Otherwise it's not too busy, just Magic related sales / walk ins. The Launch Party is Friday night.
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If anyone would like to play 500 point games in Plainville I've got a few lists to try out
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Playing around with Army Builder, came up with this -
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
5x Tomb Blades (Gauss)
3x Annihilation Barge
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Since we might have a few new people looking to try out 500 points I'll throw out a few benchmarks.
Can your list handle a Tervigon?
Can your list handle a Helldrake?
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Can you handle a Riptide? (Riptide can handle you)
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Can you handle a Riptide? (Riptide can handle you)
Depends on what the rules for that bad boy actually look like, I suppose.
Something like this might give it a pretty hard time (unless it has hit and run), especially if the table is only 4x4
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
8x Scarab Swarms
3x Tomb Spyders
2x Tomb Spyders
Have to mess around and see what a good mix is. Might be time to dust off my C'tan, who knows.
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In Soviet Tau, Riptide drive you
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This sounds cool but I'm concerned my dark angels would be tabled by a Heldrake in 2 turns and I hate to spend 10 extra points for missile launchers to carry flakk missiles, not that they would be able to survive the turn the Heldrake appeared anyway. And I see a lot of people playing with Heldrakes these days.
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so its possible to see hell drake spam?
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I know I'm going to be running 3 heldrakes. I just have to figure out how to sneak that list by Sam.
Seriously though...
10 cultists
10 cultists
2 Spawn
Heldrake
Heldrake
---
500pts
I hope nobody does that.
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Wow I hope no one does that to me. Ill make sure to check the box that says slice of cheese
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You might be able to table them before the hell drakes arrive if they get soke unluckey reserve rolls
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Can you handle a Riptide? (Riptide can handle you)
Depends on what the rules for that bad boy actually look like, I suppose.
Something like this might give it a pretty hard time (unless it has hit and run), especially if the table is only 4x4
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
8x Scarab Swarms
3x Tomb Spyders
2x Tomb Spyders
Have to mess around and see what a good mix is. Might be time to dust off my C'tan, who knows.
I'm not sure I see the problem? Riptide stats are T 6, 5 wounds 2+. Lots of special rules, but punch line is its mobile as hell and has str 7 ap 2 shots, str 9 large blasts, or HVY 12 str 6 rending shots.
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its mobile as hell and has all that fire power on a smaller table. Would make me sweat a bit thats for sure
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Can you handle a Riptide? (Riptide can handle you)
Depends on what the rules for that bad boy actually look like, I suppose.
Something like this might give it a pretty hard time (unless it has hit and run), especially if the table is only 4x4
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
8x Scarab Swarms
3x Tomb Spyders
2x Tomb Spyders
Have to mess around and see what a good mix is. Might be time to dust off my C'tan, who knows.
I'm not sure I see the problem? Riptide stats are T 6, 5 wounds 2+. Lots of special rules, but punch line is its mobile as hell and has str 7 ap 2 shots, str 9 large blasts, or HVY 12 str 6 rending shots.
Might be able to get the riptide into cc (scarabs are quick, plus adding 5 more is sexy), which I assume would do the trick. Once it's there I can keep replenishing scarabs with the spyders or keep the riptide tied up until the spyders can charge.
That list wouldn't really be able to deal with flyers unless they're in hover mode, though. Have to keep brainstorming.
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I don't remember too many players bringing Flyers to the last tournament. Generally, the lists end up more balanced than not.
And then some people decide to play Bjorn, which is awesome.
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one hell drake is all it will take to ruin a "balanced" list that has no fliers or anything to deal with them. I thought of 2 5 man tac squads and grand master Moloc but that list would get slaughtered with no anti air support
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Is it a balanced list if it has no flyers and no way to deal with flyers? I wouldn't necessarily call that "balanced", I'd call it "flyer-less".
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Anyway, yeah I think that at 500 pts, it's a real problem to have an expensive unit that is forced to start in reserve no matter how awesome it is. There's a 1 in 9 chance of it not showing up till turn 4. At that point, especially if you went second, the game might be basically over.
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That's pretty much the idea. Flyers are almost always worth it... except they're much more expensive now! How much of your force are you willing to commit to one model? And that's the quandry facing list designers at this level.
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Is it a balanced list if it has no flyers and no way to deal with flyers? I wouldn't necessarily call that "balanced", I'd call it "flyer-less".
Well, some books have limited access to flyers (some flyers that can't go into hover mode, too) or units that are effective against them, and a lot of those books have relatively high minimum points costs for troops (which limits taking other units better against flyers).
Someone posted a list with 3 helldrakes that fits into 500 points, you can bring 2-3 min-size units of cultists for the cost of other book's smallest troop size. The game does change a fair amount at 500, but I'm kind of enjoying the challenge (at least on paper) so far.
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People seem to absolutely love 500 points after spending some time on it and actually playing in the event.
I really think it's the best event we do, period.
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Can you handle a Riptide? (Riptide can handle you)
Depends on what the rules for that bad boy actually look like, I suppose.
Something like this might give it a pretty hard time (unless it has hit and run), especially if the table is only 4x4
5x Warriors
5x Warriors
8x Scarab Swarms
3x Tomb Spyders
2x Tomb Spyders
Have to mess around and see what a good mix is. Might be time to dust off my C'tan, who knows.
I'm not sure I see the problem? Riptide stats are T 6, 5 wounds 2+. Lots of special rules, but punch line is its mobile as hell and has str 7 ap 2 shots, str 9 large blasts, or HVY 12 str 6 rending shots.
Might be able to get the riptide into cc (scarabs are quick, plus adding 5 more is sexy), which I assume would do the trick. Once it's there I can keep replenishing scarabs with the spyders or keep the riptide tied up until the spyders can charge.
That list wouldn't really be able to deal with flyers unless they're in hover mode, though. Have to keep brainstorming.
The scarabs are dead first turn, every weapon the riptide has doubles them out. The best you can do is chase it around with the spiders, which I don't really see working on a small table.
The Tau player has another 320 pts to work with, too.
I think you'd do much better with wraiths, they'd have a chance to get there, at least.
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Yeah the riptide seems like it might be a really tough nut to crack at 500... it seems like other Tau might actually be best equipped to handle it (lots of long range ap2 shooting).
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But if everyone brings their nuts, it should be a wildly great tournament.
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Oh yeah, I'm not complaining, just machinating.
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how about something like this
8 man tactical squad with missile launcher + flakk missiles in a rhino
8 man tactical squad with missile launcher + flakk missiles in a rhino
vindicator
very few units but everything is in armor plus a str 10 large blast to dish out the pain
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Can't do it because you need 10 guys in a Tac unit to be able to take missile Launcher.
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Should have put this in the last post but its a dark angels list so a squad below 10 guys gets to choose a special or heavy weapon
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I just looked it up and I didn't even realize you could replace 1 guy with a special or Heavy under ten. That gives a Lot more options.
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How many points are storm talons and storm ravens? I have been meaning to buy some air support...
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Stormtalon is base 110 points Storm Raven 200 points.
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How are new tau at cracking AV14 boxes? Maybe its time to dust off the monolith.
Something like -
5x warriors
5x warriors
Monolith
Annihilation barge
Leaves me 80 points to play with.
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Maybe a tiny bit worse than they used to be? Broadsides aren't Str 10 anymore, so there's that. But fusion blasters are 18" range (meaning melta at 9") and Crisis suit changes mean I would expect to see more of them.
Also, there's a Hammerhead upgrade tank commander that makes the tank BS 5 and have tank hunters. Hammerheads are stupid cheap now at 125 pts, and he's 45....I would expect most Tau players to take him, I sure will. Hammerheads railguns are still Str 10. Broadsides can get tankhunters, but that's just a reroll, so it won't let Str 8 pen AV 14.
Riptide will either have a Str 9 Ordance (so much like tankhunters, roll two dice tanke the highest) OR a hvy 12 Rending gun. Not really great odds on a Monolith, but he can do it. Of course, he'll just murder it in assault.
It's changed in that a LR heavy list with assault troops won't be just invalidated by Tau, cuz there won't be that many Str 10 Railguns, and Tau assault can probably keep the fusion blasters off (maybe, won't be easy). That's probably a good change.
But one Monolith? I think the Tau player would kill it first turn. There's going to be at least 1 Str 10 Railgun, with rerolls, that ignores cover, heading it's way at least.
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How cheap are tau for min sized troops? The hammerhead and riptide add up to about 350.
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They can have 6 man FW squads at 54. That's one of the cheaper troops units in the game, I think. (not marine expensive, can be taken less than 10).
Kroot start at 60 for 10, I think you'd have to give them sniper ammo for 70, though.
I don't know I'd take Riptide at 500 pts. The hammer head with Farisight (which makes the tank BS 5) plus all the upgrades I'd want runs near 200 pts.
There's a lot of options. Both are pretty hard to deal with, though.
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I might be bringing a nightwing and phoenix bomber. It shall be a fun day :D